Expelled PADI instructor?

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

The Chairman

Chairman of the Board
Staff member
Messages
63,033
Reaction score
31,913
Location
Cave Country!
# of dives
I just don't log dives
There are a lot of unsafe drivers out there who passed the tests but still make horrible decisions. Unless they're caught or have an accident, we really have no way of getting them off the streets. I would love to see expulsions rise at this point.
 

beanojones

Contributor
Messages
3,204
Reaction score
340
It's also completely false that the instructor can be expelled for something the shop did. The instructor has the final say in whether or not to accept what is being asked of them. In terms of decisions, many, if not most accidents during training could be avoided if the instructor learned one simple word..... "NO". If the instructor decides not to say NO against their better judgement then they are culpable.


PADI has consistently and gradually made changes in the power structure both within their organization, and the representation of the organization in the industry that make those ideas less and less true. Though I certainly wish what you said there were true, in practice, it is far from how things are.

When Course Directors are required to be direct employees/contrctors of shops, their ability to be a force against bad shops disappears completely. PADI could simply make this change back to CDs being independent agents, and like magic, the way it should be (and the way you wrote it) would re-appear.

As it it has become now, a CD is locked into doing things the way the shop whats them done, because the CD rating requires assciating with a shop, or it cannot be used (except for PADI HQ staff).

There is a reason why I have no interest in climbing the PADI ladder IDC staff, CD etc. I see the system doing what it does. I have seen the gradual stripping of control from the hands of instructors, and moving it to the retailers. And this is the internet era no less, where operators are far more important than retailers to the industry as a whole. It's empowering the wrong people to effect change and enforce safety.

And then, when dive instrcutors are h-2 workers where their continued presence in the place where they live is dependent completely on the whim of the shop where they work, nothing about the ideals of your statement remain.

Shops can get 'uncooperative' instructors deported against their will. They have no recourse to labor boards, independent cousel etc, because there are specifically individuals without a citizen's rights, because they are not citizens. Minimum wage laws, workplace safety issues etc. are all a problem. And those are issues that do not require langauge and cultural skills and the specific diving skills that only other similarly capable instrcutors are even capable of evaluating. If minimum wage laws, sexual harassment, and workplace safety cannot be guaranteed, why would something as esoteric as PADI standards be something that could even slightly be seen to be in the power of H-2 worker instrcutors to control?
 

Diver0001

New
Scuba Instructor
Messages
0
Reaction score
5,998
Location
Somewhere
True, Benojones,

I was considering the situation from the context in which instructors in the Netherlands generally work, which is the context in which I'm familiar. There are a lot of instructors here but few of them are full time diving instructors and most work on some kind of a freelance basis.

I know for sure if a shop told me to do something that I believed was unsafe that I would say no. In fact, I have. There are shops and instructors here that I simply won't work with because they have a philosophy of "avoiding the **** sticking to them if something happens" instead of "doing everything reasonably possible to make sure **** doesn't happen". More than one shop that I know of spends a lot of energy on inventing legal, contractual and insurance constructions that would allow them to duck and hide and leave the instructor twisting in the wind if something happens. How they manage to get anyone at all to work there is beyond me. I think some people -- even scuba instructors -- must be pretty naive. Obviously some shops see instructors and by extension students to some degree as "expendable" as long as the cash keeps flowing.

I understand that you're saying that some people are more dependent on keeping the boss happy than others but as an instructor your primary moral and ethical responsibility is to the safety of yourself and your students. When you start losing sight of that because you're afraid to say "no" then there are bigger problems with your performance as an instructor than just an angry boss. Personally I'm not the kind of person to avoid conflict when I believe it is justified. I'd rather have a firm "discussion" with my employer than to take a risk of killing someone. Maybe some improvements can be hammered out before someone gets hurt. If not, then they wouldn't have to fire me. Your last resort as a professional instructor in this situation is to protect your students any way you can, even it means utterly refusing to do what is asked of you for safety sake.

R..
 
OP
seeker242

seeker242

Contributor
Messages
1,429
Reaction score
967
Location
Pompano Beach, FL
# of dives
200 - 499
You have to feel confident that your instructor is competent for you to be able to learn effectively. There are tons of instructors out there and somehow, most of us never run afoul of the agencies we teach under. It takes a special instructor to be expelled... and probably not the kind of "special" you want to deal with.

This is exactly why I started this thread! :) I don't see how I could trust the instruction with that kind of blemish. Plus, like you said there are TONS of other instructors here in SoFLa! Including ones in Key Largo! Ha! :D One day I'll come down there and learn some "snobbish trim". :D
 

The Chairman

Chairman of the Board
Staff member
Messages
63,033
Reaction score
31,913
Location
Cave Country!
# of dives
I just don't log dives
This is exactly why I started this thread! :) I don't see how I could trust the instruction with that kind of blemish. Plus, like you said there are TONS of other instructors here in SoFLa! Including ones in Key Largo! Ha! :D One day I'll come down there and learn some "snobbish trim". :D

90f7e825928c2184d54060466f54c7f9.jpg

Thanks for the more than kind words! Most instructors want to do a great job, but only a few of us "Teach it Neutral Style". Ask your prospective instructor how they teach and follow that 'Gut Instinct' as you go. And no, you don't have to take a class to get that snobbish trim. There's a lot of info right here on SB that will help you achieve that easily.
 

oly5050user

Contributor
Scuba Instructor
Messages
4,147
Reaction score
903
Location
Westchester NY
# of dives
5000 - ∞
PADI has consistently and gradually made changes in the power structure both within their organization, and the representation of the organization in the industry that make those ideas less and less true. Though I certainly wish what you said there were true, in practice, it is far from how things are.

When Course Directors are required to be direct employees/contrctors of shops, their ability to be a force against bad shops disappears completely. PADI could simply make this change back to CDs being independent agents, and like magic, the way it should be (and the way you wrote it) would re-appear.

As it it has become now, a CD is locked into doing things the way the shop whats them done, because the CD rating requires assciating with a shop, or it cannot be used (except for PADI HQ staff).

There is a reason why I have no interest in climbing the PADI ladder IDC staff, CD etc. I see the system doing what it does. I have seen the gradual stripping of control from the hands of instructors, and moving it to the retailers. And this is the internet era no less, where operators are far more important than retailers to the industry as a whole. It's empowering the wrong people to effect change and enforce safety.

And then, when dive instrcutors are h-2 workers where their continued presence in the place where they live is dependent completely on the whim of the shop where they work, nothing about the ideals of your statement remain.

Shops can get 'uncooperative' instructors deported against their will. They have no recourse to labor boards, independent cousel etc, because there are specifically individuals without a citizen's rights, because they are not citizens. Minimum wage laws, workplace safety issues etc. are all a problem. And those are issues that do not require langauge and cultural skills and the specific diving skills that only other similarly capable instrcutors are even capable of evaluating. If minimum wage laws, sexual harassment, and workplace safety cannot be guaranteed, why would something as esoteric as PADI standards be something that could even slightly be seen to be in the power of H-2 worker instrcutors to control?
Really? I work at a New York 5 star IDC center as a IDCS instructor, full time, and always had the say on a student pass or fail.
as for course directors not being independent, where does this come from? CD's we use are both independent and both of them work out of different 5 star IDC centers in the NY,NJ area. We even can bring one from Florida if and when the need arises. Not at all arguing what you say is untrue, it may very well be at locations foreign or in the USA, but from my experience working in NY, NJ and USVI St Thomas, I have not experienced it. We have minimum wage laws in the states and if an instructor does not like the pay scale offered they can either decline working at a location or try to negotiate for a higher wage. No one forces anyone to teach or work where they do not want to. It can be that simple. You cannot paint all LDS owners or training agency's with such a wide brush making them out as ALL evil.
 

tursiops

Marine Scientist and Master Instructor
ScubaBoard Supporter
Scuba Instructor
Messages
12,910
Reaction score
11,296
Location
U.S. East Coast
# of dives
2500 - 4999
Really? I work at a New York 5 star IDC center as a IDCS instructor, full time, and always had the say on a student pass or fail.
as for course directors not being independent, where does this come from? CD's we use are both independent and both of them work out of different 5 star IDC centers in the NY,NJ area. We even can bring one from Florida if and when the need arises. Not at all arguing what you say is untrue, it may very well be at locations foreign or in the USA, but from my experience working in NY, NJ and USVI St Thomas, I have not experienced it. We have minimum wage laws in the states and if an instructor does not like the pay scale offered they can either decline working at a location or try to negotiate for a higher wage. No one forces anyone to teach or work where they do not want to. It can be that simple. You cannot paint all LDS owners or training agency's with such a wide brush making them out as ALL evil.

I agree completely. The post you quoted was from some alternate reality.
 

HamataBound

Registered
Scuba Instructor
Messages
31
Reaction score
5
Location
Houston, TX
I happen to know of a case where an instructor has been cleared of negligence in a case that involved a fatality. PADI cleared the instructor in question and now an inquest has been opened up in a different country (the country of residence of the deceased) and PADI has stated that if the court in the deceased student's country (this court has no legal jurisdiction in the country where the incident occurred nor the country of the instructor's residence) that PADI will expel the instructor even though PADI themselves found no fault on the instructor's part.

My advice is to ask the instructor. Unfortunately PADI is changing, the founding member is now diving in the great big ocean in the sky and things are not what they used to be. I am still a PADI member and have no intention of changing regardless of the outcome of the case. I'm just saying that sometimes things happen to an instructor that are completely out of the instructor's control and PADI is buying a fleet of busses.

PS The instructor in question just got written up in the Underwater Journal for being an role model for students and has even been featured in some PADI promotional materials as well.
 

boulderjohn

Technical Instructor
ScubaBoard Supporter
Scuba Instructor
Divemaster
Messages
28,388
Reaction score
22,735
Location
Boulder, CO
# of dives
1000 - 2499
I happen to know of a case where an instructor has been cleared of negligence in a case that involved a fatality. PADI cleared the instructor in question and now an inquest has been opened up in a different country (the country of residence of the deceased) and PADI has stated that if the court in the deceased student's country (this court has no legal jurisdiction in the country where the incident occurred nor the country of the instructor's residence) that PADI will expel the instructor even though PADI themselves found no fault on the instructor's part.

I find it very hard to believe that PADI would ever state something like this, even if it were their intention. I think it would be a very foolish statement to make. Can you provide evidence of this statement?
 

HamataBound

Registered
Scuba Instructor
Messages
31
Reaction score
5
Location
Houston, TX
The case is ongoing so I can not. As I know more information I will update the thread.

I shouldn't have posted the above message I apologize.

I was just stating to the fact that sometimes something happens that is out of the instructor's control.

On a better note the instructor in question has been in contact with PADI Americas and they are doing everything they can to help the instructor.

So I will retract my statement about the fleet of buses and apologize for the statement.
 
Last edited:
https://www.shearwater.com/products/swift/

Top Bottom