Expelled PADI instructor?

[scubaozy]

Am I missing something here, or is this the answer to a question from 6.5 years ago?

List of people who awoke from a coma - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[bfw]

So I met this instructor who currently instructs for other agencies. However, he is listed as one of PADI's recently expelled instructors. I can't imagine being forcibly expelled from any agency would be a good thing. Is there any way to find out why he was expelled? Would PADI tell me why he was expelled? Obviously, I don't want to sign up with an instructor that was instructing in an unsafe manner, if that was the reason why he was expelled to begin with. I don't know. But the guy seems like a nice guy so I really don't want to put him on the spot and say "So hey, how come you got expelled from PADI?". I could imagine that may be a fairly awkward conversation!

PADI specifically lists disparaging PADI as grounds for expulsion. Most of the PADI members I know disparage PADI, but they tend to do it in private conversations for exactly that reason. I never publicly disparaged PADI until I had completed all the requirements for a NAUI crossover and decided not to renew.

 

[bfw]

Am I missing something here, or is this the answer to a question from 6.5 years ago?

Some of us occasionally take a break from online forums to engage in life.

 

[bfw]

As for your ability to interpret PADI policies, let's look at the record. When I quoted LeRoy Wickham of PADI, who wrote in the clearest possible language that it was permissible to teach students while they are neutrally buoyant from the very beginning of the class and that no standards were being violated for doing so, you responded by stating that his statement proved that it was NOT permissible to teach neutrally buoyant because it WAS a violation of standards. When PADI President and CEO Drew Richardson praised that approach after our article appeared in the PADI professional journal, you (along with devondiver) continued to insist that it was a violation of standards that could get one expelled,

Some clarity is needed here. It appears there may be a semantic disconnect here between you and some of those with whom you contend, including beanojones and me.

Please elaborate- you say "it was permissible to TEACH students while they are neutrally buoyant from the very beginning of the class." Do you mean that it is permissible to REQUIRE students to demonstrate mastery of ALL the skills outlined in the standards while maintaining neutral buoyancy midwater, as a condition of passing the confined water and/or open water portion of the course? In other words, if a student successfully clears their mask multiple times while kneeling on the bottom, but cannot do so while horizontal and maintaining neutral buoyancy midwater, can certification be withheld? My understanding, from the written standards, discussions with regional directors during member updates, and the QA encounter experience of some colleagues, is that the answer is no.

I'd also be interested in your perspective regarding whether the standards allow certification to be conditioned upon the proficient completion of various difficult task loading drills which include the simultaneous performance of 4 or more skills listed in the standards along with maintaining neutral buoyancy, e.g. a single hose buddy breathing rig exchange where one of the buddies is without a mask.

 

[tursiops]

Some clarity is needed here. It appears there may be a semantic disconnect here between you and some of those with whom you contend, including beanojones and me.

Please elaborate- you say "it was permissible to TEACH students while they are neutrally buoyant from the very beginning of the class." Do you mean that it is permissible to REQUIRE students to demonstrate mastery of ALL the skills outlined in the standards while maintaining neutral buoyancy midwater, as a condition of passing the confined water and/or open water portion of the course? In other words, if a student successfully clears their mask multiple times while kneeling on the bottom, but cannot do so while horizontal and maintaining neutral buoyancy midwater, can certification be withheld? My understanding, from the written standards, discussions with regional directors during member updates, and the QA encounter experience of some colleagues, is that the answer is no.

I'd also be interested in your perspective regarding whether the standards allow certification to be conditioned upon the proficient completion of various difficult task loading drills which include the simultaneous performance of 4 or more skills listed in the standards along with maintaining neutral buoyancy, e.g. a single hose buddy breathing rig exchange where one of the buddies is without a mask.

Hang on....I'll give you a quick answer in 6.5 years.

 

[yle]

Am I missing something here, or is this the answer to a question from 6.5 years ago?

It seems it's an answer to a question from 6.5 years ago regarding something that was said in a meeting 7 years before that! But... better late than never?

 

[yle]

I've also seen an instructor directly ordered to issue a cert to a student who met the letter minimum of the written standard despite the student's failure/refusal to satisfy the instructor's evaluation of mastery.

This is a weird statement. I'm no authority on PADI standards, but I'm pretty sure they state that students are to achieve "mastery" of the skills before certification. There is nothing about "minimum of the written standard".

It sounds like the instructor's opinion of "mastery" of the required skills included mastery of additional skills that he wanted the student to complete... but that PADI told him the student achieved "mastery" of the skills specified in the course, and was so entitled to their certification.

 

[yle]

Some clarity is needed here. It appears there may be a semantic disconnect here between you and some of those with whom you contend, including beanojones and me.

Please elaborate- you say "it was permissible to TEACH students while they are neutrally buoyant from the very beginning of the class." Do you mean that it is permissible to REQUIRE students to demonstrate mastery of ALL the skills outlined in the standards while maintaining neutral buoyancy midwater, as a condition of passing the confined water and/or open water portion of the course?

No, that's not at all what's he's saying. I'm no legal expert, but he's clearly saying that neutrally buoyant instruction was allowed, but not required, during that era. Instructors would not "get in trouble" for doing it, but students would not be required to do it for certification.

In other words, if a student successfully clears their mask multiple times while kneeling on the bottom, but cannot do so while horizontal and maintaining neutral buoyancy midwater, can certification be withheld?

In that era, when neutrally buoyant instruction was not required... no. You can't withhold certification from a student for something that was not required.

My understanding, from the written standards, discussions with regional directors during member updates, and the QA encounter experience of some colleagues, is that the answer is no.

They are all correct. They answer is no. And nothing John wrote implies otherwise.

I'd also be interested in your perspective regarding whether the standards allow certification to be conditioned upon the proficient completion of various difficult task loading drills which include the simultaneous performance of 4 or more skills listed in the standards along with maintaining neutral buoyancy, e.g. a single hose buddy breathing rig exchange where one of the buddies is without a mask.

The standards are pretty simple to understand. It's not as if there's a lot of room for interpretation, debate or opinions. It's a little concerning that your perception is otherwise.

 

[tursiops]

The standards are pretty simple to understand. It's not as if there's a lot of room for interpretation, debate or opinions. It's a little concerning that your perception is otherwise.

He's not looking for clarification or understanding. He is looking to catch someone in a gotcha, preferably B.John. He is trolling.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Some clarity is needed here. It appears there may be a semantic disconnect here between you and some of those with whom you contend, including beanojones and me.

Please elaborate- you say "it was permissible to TEACH students while they are neutrally buoyant from the very beginning of the class." Do you mean that it is permissible to REQUIRE students to demonstrate mastery of ALL the skills outlined in the standards while maintaining neutral buoyancy midwater, as a condition of passing the confined water and/or open water portion of the course? In other words, if a student successfully clears their mask multiple times while kneeling on the bottom, but cannot do so while horizontal and maintaining neutral buoyancy midwater, can certification be withheld? My understanding, from the written standards, discussions with regional directors during member updates, and the QA encounter experience of some colleagues, is that the answer is no.

At the end of my time with PADI, I went through a training advisor to ensure that teaching neutrally buoyant and trimmed didn't violate standards. Because I weighted students while floating on the surface gradually until they sank and would rise and fall midwater from their breath, I wasn't violating standards. If however, I had overweighted them and taken weight off until they did the same, I would have been. Now this is not an official word of PADI, but it was discussed in a PADI staff meeting and was in email.

For me, it was sufficient to proceed. I never placed students on their knees after that while teaching for PADI or other agencies. Never had an issue of a student unable to perform skills neutrally buoyant. They didn't always succeed on their first try, but eventually they could. As soon as they were comfortable, we'd move on. So yes, I required neutral buoyancy, but I never found it an issue. Honestly, if they couldn't master it neutrally buoyant, I wouldn't certify them.

I'd also be interested in your perspective regarding whether the standards allow certification to be conditioned upon the proficient completion of various difficult task loading drills which include the simultaneous performance of 4 or more skills listed in the standards along with maintaining neutral buoyancy, e.g. a single hose buddy breathing rig exchange where one of the buddies is without a mask.

Yeah, I got in big trouble when I unleashed my Humboldt squid on students as they were performing skills. If you can't remove, replace, and clear your mask after my pet squid broke your wrist with its beak, do you really think you're qualified to dive after the class? PADI and I differed on that as I relented as I didn't want to be expelled.

The standards are clear that no additional skills can be required for certification.