Eagles Nest Cave Diver Death

[wedivebc]

the thing i keep thinking is how angry i am at this. you know, when someone with cave cert dies, like bruce or richard, it is sad & we try to glean reminders of what to do or not to do, and shake our heads.

What difference is it cave cert or not? Did Richard violate any less training or procedure guidelines than these guys? All these senseless deaths have a negative impact on all of us. Every time someone dies in a cave, wreck, rebreather etc, no matter how preventable the accident or how much the diver caused their own fate the outside world looks in and says "see I told you that was dangerous". Those of us on the inside know that we can mitigate that risk but there will always be others who chose to take extreme risks for no apparent reason and make us all look bad.

 

[BabyDuck]

Cave, even cavern, diving without proper instruction and training is reckless and dangerous and it's helpful to be reminded. In this case however, it seems it was not the cave that killed the diver but a gas mistake - is that right?

that does seem to be true, but all 'everyone' in the non-cave-diving or non-diving world sees is 'ooh, caves are dangerous, let's close them all!'

there *are* inherent risks to cave diving, but education & skills assessment mitigate many of them. without the education & skills, you're a lamb in the slaughterhouse even if you manage to stumble off the killing floor, but it makes cave diving look riskier than it can be.

dave, there may be only a difference to me. one makes me sad & one makes me angry.

 

[Rick Murchison]

Gee, one of them signs with a big grim reaper on it should keep them out eh?

Apparently not.
Rick

 

[Rick Murchison]

... Cave, even cavern, diving without proper instruction and training is reckless and dangerous and it's helpful to be reminded. In this case however, it seems it was not the cave that killed the diver but a gas mistake - is that right?

First of all we still don't know what killed him, or what breathing gas problem existed, if any.
If we assume that it was a "rich mix" problem, then it was the cave that killed him, because the rich mix wouldn't have been a problem as it could have been solved at the earliest tiniest symptom simply by ascending 50 feet or so. The overhead prevented that, and killed the diver.
Rick

 

[DandyDon]

First of all we still don't know what killed him, or what breathing gas problem existed, if any.
If we assume that it was a "rich mix" problem, then it was the cave that killed him, because the rich mix wouldn't have been a problem as it could have been solved at the earliest tiniest symptom simply by ascending 50 feet or so. The overhead prevented that, and killed the diver.
Rick

Ah ok, I'd missed that logic. Thanks!

 

[wedivebc]

First of all we still don't know what killed him, or what breathing gas problem existed, if any.
If we assume that it was a "rich mix" problem, then it was the cave that killed him, because the rich mix wouldn't have been a problem as it could have been solved at the earliest tiniest symptom simply by ascending 50 feet or so. The overhead prevented that, and killed the diver.
Rick

I am not sure I agree here Rick. First of all we both know there is not always an earliest sign of O2 toxicity. We do know the narcosis level was way too high for most situations but especially a CCR cave dive where they needed to have a very high level of awareness.
As in most accidents there are a combination of factors that were to blame and possibly removing one factor might have prevented the accident (this time) but it could just as easily happened in open water given the same circumstances.

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

What difference is it cave cert or not? Did Richard violate any less training or procedure guidelines than these guys? All these senseless deaths have a negative impact on all of us. Every time someone dies in a cave, wreck, rebreather etc, no matter how preventable the accident or how much the diver caused their own fate the outside world looks in and says "see I told you that was dangerous". Those of us on the inside know that we can mitigate that risk but there will always be others who chose to take extreme risks for no apparent reason and make us all look bad.

We can stack the cards in our favor by diving within our limits and training.

The difference here is you have two divers without the proper training who came up with the brilliant plan to dive in an environment they had no business in. The responsibility of this death lies on both divers shoulders.

Richard's death rests in his complacency in equipment. It wasn't Dan's responsibility to replace or know that Richard's O2 sensors were current, or the rest of the gear was in a divable state. It was a mixed team and that comes with some alien differences in gear. All Dan needed to know was where the bailout was(which he wouldn't need since he dives sidemount) and where the valves were that needed to be closed if towing him out was necessary... maybe what those blinky lights mean and which ones are bad. I dived with Richard, he ran me through it before our dive.

Complacency is bad and it led to Richards death. Diving beyond your training and experience is downright suicidal and irresponsible... and two divers decided to do this, thinking it was a good idea??? Thats just mind boggling. Some people make stupid decisions, I just don't get how two of these people managed to pair up and go diving... neither having a voice of reason.

 

[deepstops]

Some people make stupid decisions, I just don't get how two of these people managed to pair up and go diving... neither having a voice of reason.

One only needs to look at the double fatality at Wayne's World earlier this year and the double fatality at Eagle's Nest a few years ago to see that "birds of a feather flock together" :depressed:

 

[bsee65]

First of all we still don't know what killed him, or what breathing gas problem existed, if any.
If we assume that it was a "rich mix" problem, then it was the cave that killed him, because the rich mix wouldn't have been a problem as it could have been solved at the earliest tiniest symptom simply by ascending 50 feet or so. The overhead prevented that, and killed the diver.
Rick

Not to mention that his buddy was in touch when the problem was occurring. In an OW situation, it would have been much more possible for the buddy to get a grip on the victim, create positive bouyancy, and bring him up. I believe it was stated that he wasn't, however, in a position to tow him out through tunnels.

 

[jkaterenchuk]

Not to mention that his buddy was in touch when the problem was occurring. In an OW situation, it would have been much more possible for the buddy to get a grip on the victim, create positive bouyancy, and bring him up. I believe it was stated that he wasn't, however, in a position to tow him out through tunnels.

I assume you are not a CCR diver or never tried to ascend a non-responsive CCR diver especially if they are wearing a drysuit. Might seem easy but the reality is quite different.

Bring him up smells of some kind of control....send him up would be closer to reality.

John