Dumbing down of scuba certification courses (PADI) - what have we missed?

[The Chairman]

The instructors who taught them said that without a single exception, every one of them had the academic content nailed, and they were all fully prepared for the pool portion of the class.

It's truly amazing. I was very concerned about this portion, but I have YET to have an unprepared student who has done the e-learning portion.

 

[ScubaDocER]

Yet, ScubaBoard is NOT a formal class.

In concur. I don't believe that it should be. I believe that education comes in many different forms and the prudent Instructor is able utilize multiple sources to accomplish the goal of educating their students. I believe that like elearning, ScubaBoard is a wonderful adjunct to the academic teachings of new students. They can receive different perspectives on the same topic. They can discuss those topics with their Instructor for even greater clarity.

 

[boulderjohn]

I am thinking, as I often do, in terms of an analogy.

A number of years ago I took the soccer team of 16-year old boys I was coaching to Europe. We stayed and played a while in Germany, taking in local cultural sights as we did. We were took those side trips in our assigned tour bus. The trip to Heidelberg Castle was quite an experience, with that lumbering bus maneuvering up the narrow, medieval road that led up the steep face of the mountain, with each hairpin switchback seemingly more impossible to navigate than the last. A team of 16-year old boys, the hardest audience in the world to impress, watched in silent awe and at times burst into cheers and applause.

That driver was impressive. Words cannot convey how much better a driver he was than I am.

But I'm OK. I drive my car where I want to go. I don't get into accidents. I don't get tickets too often. Maybe someday I will want to drive a tour bus, but I doubt it. If I do decide to become a tour bus driver, I will take all of the classes I need to get to be as good as he. If I don't, taking such classes would be a waste of my time. I am sure that some people believe I should learn more driving skills, just in case I get into an emergency situation where I do have drive something along those lines. You never know, after all, when that could happen.

In all endeavors, we have to make decisions about how good we want to be and how good we need to be.

I heard it argued a couple of years ago by someone who has been very active in this thread that all beginning open water divers should be able to tie a bowline with one hand while wearing a three finger mitten. We later had a PM exchange in which I challenged him on that, and he retracted it to a degree, saying he "supposed not" that it was that essential.

I myself am positive that the ability to tie a bowline with one hand with a three finger mitten is not needed for general OW divers. First of all, the bowline is pretty much an obsolete knot that is rarely used by anyone in need of tying serious knots. (I have three world class climbing friends and a public safety diver who tell me so.) Next, the vast majority of divers will never see a three fingered mitten in their lives, let alone wear one. Finally, the vast majority of OW divers will never tie a knot under water, or ever see one tied under water.

If those divers want to extend the range of their diving experiences to include a need for tying bowlines with one hand while wearing a three fingered mitten, then they can take classes for that. (I guess.) If not, maybe they are better off without that instruction.

 

[ScubaDocER]

Actually, that has not been the primary thrust of my posts. That really isn't the main methodological problem, although it could be when it is done.

I never said it was the primary thrust of your argument. Just what previous posts had suggested.

Research over the past few decades has shown the opposite, that proper application of effective methodologies can make any student succeed at a high level.

On this we agree. And it is the crux of my previous post. There are many issues that may cause a student to fail. One may be the methodology, the other may be the Instructor. An inept Instructor attempting to apply a proven methodology most often fails himself and his student. Learn to apply a successful methodology (this may be subjective) and the students should succeed. The requires raising the bar for all involved, the student, the Instructor, and even the methodology if need be. The question remains however, which methodology will be successful for the education of ones students. That may be where we differ philosophically.

Because decades of research has shown it to be true.

Has shown what to be true? My comments related to the Sage on the Stage concept. One that I am still not clear on as you perceive it. My point was that a student requiring an understanding of diving concepts would welcome an interactive, engaging, and thorough Instructor no matter how long it took. The education of students is not about hearing yourself speak. It is about seeking comprehension for your students to betterment.

The concept of No Child Left Behind is a sincere one. It is a goal, not necessarily a destination. It challenges the Instructor to use additional means to accomplish the goal of creating educated students. There will inevitably be students who do not succeed. I would challenge the Instructor to make sure that everything reasonable occurred to prevent that from happening.

 

[ScubaDocER]

Interesting. That is one of the key criticisms of the sage on the stage approach to education. Lecturing people on "how to process the knowedge and analyze the information they are receiving" is considered to be less effective than having them process knowledge and analyze information.

Actually I am not lecturing anyone on anything. I have yet to meet an educator who does not teach their students to analyze the information they are exposed to. It forms the foundation for learning and true comprehension. Without it, people will blindly accept anything they are told. They will not be able to discern quality information form dangerous information. How can you process information you have not analyzed? Your statement here is simply nonsensical, IMO.

 

[The Chairman]

If those divers want to extend the range of their diving experiences to include a need for tying bowlines with one hand while wearing a three fingered mitten, then they can take classes for that. (I guess.) If not, maybe they are better off without that instruction.

Quite true! Just because something is CHALLENGING, does not make it essential.

 

[Thalassamania]

Last night we had an instructor meeting at the LDS for whom I work as a part time contract instructor. One of the topics was eLearning, which the shop only starting using in the last 6 months. The instructors who were assigned to these students were the regular store employees, so neither I nor the other contact instructors I have had any direct experience (yet). The instructors who taught them said that without a single exception, every one of them had the academic content nailed, and they were all fully prepared for the pool portion of the class.

All that says is that the e-learning did as good or better job than the LDS staff used to ... I don't find that surprising, with no reflection on the LDS staff intended.

This is GREAT for your eensy tiny subset of Science Divers who are in reality PROFESSIONAL divers. It's just not needed for the rank and file enthusiast who want to dabble in the sport!

I fear that you are once again displaying more of what you do not know that what you do know. I'd be hard pressed to describe any of the folks we trained (with the exception of four Ocean Enginnering that went on to be commercial divers, two other who became diving magazine editors and one who opened a dive resort) as PROFESSIONAL divers. Some are scientists, engineers, techicians and students, who use diving techniques to support their work, many are not in science or engineering, but simply want to learn how to dive well (and are often kind enough to serve as buddies for the first group). In point of fact institutional regulation prohibit specific pay for diving and specify that anyone can refuse to dive at any time, for any reason, without fear of loss of pay or status. Hardly PROFESSIONAL divers.

Where we differ is in what the level of performance that should be expected of new divers should be, you subscribe to what I see as a rock bottom view, one that I think is inadequate, I advocate a more robust program that you ridicule as "elitist." Given the choice of being possibly inadequate or possibly elitist, I'll take elitist every time.

I can train first aid/cpr on many levels depending on what you need to do.

Baby Sitters
Basic
Professional
Wilderness Survival

Each of these classes has their own agenda, their own curricula, their own standards and their own time frame. Will the baby sitters benefit from the Professional class? Sure they could... but more than likely they would be overwhelmed by the intensity and the rigor of the scenarios. Why cut them OUT of learning the basics by mandating that they HAVE to learn how the pros do it?

Pardon me, but I am going to keep the FUN in the FUNdamentals of diving!

If I wanted to teach PROFESSIONAL diving, I would go join an academy. Not that they would let me inb. I simply have toooooo much fun!

There is no reason to expect that a baby sitter will ever see and have to solve the sorts of situations or problems that a Professional or Wilderness senerio might present. A baby sitter is being trained only to deal with children and infants in a situation that is close to a telephone. But the ocean doesn't care what your C-card says on it, it doesn't care who you are, it doesn't care what your instructor thought (or did not think) you needed to be prepared for. The ocean does what it will ... you can't be prepared for everything, but the more that you are prepared for the more comfortable you will be, the better the chance that you'll stick with and the more FUN you will have.

Pardon me, but I am going to keep the FUN in the FUNdamentals of diving!

If I wanted to teach PROFESSIONAL diving, I would go join an academy. Not that they would let me in. I simply have toooooo much fun!

I don't know where you ever got the idea that our students didn't have FUN. Let me tell you, when they leave the first breath hold session, all having just succeeeded in holding their breath, with almost no effort, for a miniute and a half or more, well ... you've never seen a group of people that have had more FUN than they just did.

 

[Thalassamania]

As has been suggested before in this thread, the length of time required to do an OW class is in part dependent upon the concept of what skills are required to do an OW class. I have been reading these threads for years now, and it all gets to be a blur.

I seem to remember, though, that Thal once gave a specific example of a skill a student should be required to master in order to get basic OW certification. Please correct me if I am misremembering (and it is too hard to search through 12,000+ posts on roughly the same topic to find this specific one), but I recall that he said an OW student should be able to tie a bowline with one hand while wearing a three fingered mitten.

If that is an indication of the thoroughness that he expects in his OW instruction, then the entire "how long does it take" discussion goes out the window. It will take a lot longer to teach those kinds of skills than those normally required for OW certification. The question should now be whether or not an OW student needs to learn skills like that.

Your memory is not bad ... but it is somewhat warped by what you want to remember.

I found it rather easy to search through the posts (hint, the "site:scubaboard.com" function in google can provide a much more robust search tool). Indeed I did mention that we teach that skill, our divers learn how to tie a bowline, left handed and right handed, coming and going, with one hand while wearing three finger mitts.

Quite true! Just because something is CHALLENGING, does not make it essential.

It's not even that challanging. While NetDoc and Boulderjohn question the need for such training, indeed there was a comment about how teaching that skill would take longer than the average scuba course , in reality we get that done in about an hour ... but that's what elite groups are capable of.

I am thinking, as I often do, in terms of an analogy.

A number of years ago I took the soccer team of 16-year old boys I was coaching to Europe. We stayed and played a while in Germany, taking in local cultural sights as we did. We were took those side trips in our assigned tour bus. The trip to Heidelberg Castle was quite an experience, with that lumbering bus maneuvering up the narrow, medieval road that led up the steep face of the mountain, with each hairpin switchback seemingly more impossible to navigate than the last. A team of 16-year old boys, the hardest audience in the world to impress, watched in silent awe and at times burst into cheers and applause.

That driver was impressive. Words cannot convey how much better a driver he was than I am.

But I'm OK. I drive my car where I want to go. I don't get into accidents. I don't get tickets too often. Maybe someday I will want to drive a tour bus, but I doubt it. If I do decide to become a tour bus driver, I will take all of the classes I need to get to be as good as he. If I don't, taking such classes would be a waste of my time. I am sure that some people believe I should learn more driving skills, just in case I get into an emergency situation where I do have drive something along those lines. You never know, after all, when that could happen.

The problem with analogies that they often do not hold water. This is a perfect example, rather analogous (if I may be so bold) to NetDoc's earlier attempt at an analogy.

In all endeavors, we have to make decisions about how good we want to be and how good we need to be.

Therein lies the key, I couldn't have said it better myself. The decisions that I've made about how good I have to be, and how good the people I train have to be, is clearly not the same as the decisions that others have made concerning the same issues. Over the years I have found that it is quite possible to get people to that level without any pushups in full gear or other such foolishness ... all it takes is time and a good instructional staff. I invented very little of what we do ... I stole most all of it from others who hold a similar view of what they want out of life, who refuse to settle for less.

 

[Walter]

I have YET to see you do a Giant Stride while doing a shore dive at Venice.

The giant stride is an excellent entry in some situations, including some shore dives. In other situations, Venice Beach is an excellent example, it's not a good choice. No disagreements on that point.

It almost always depends on the circumstances. BTW, if you took the time to comprehend what I actually said, the word "never" was not used in that context by me. As for reasons cited by BoulderJohn about pedagogical research, I LIMIT my usage of anecdotes in my lectures.

I'm glad to hear it. While I'm aware you did not use the word "never," it did seem to be implied from the context. I'm very happy to see you did not mean to imply its use.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that just about everyone is in agreement with regard to e-learning and lectures with dive stories. They are excellent tools if used correctly when teaching, but either can be (and often are) misused. When misused they are much less effective than when properly used.

 

[Thalassamania]

I heard it argued a couple of years ago by someone who has been very active in this thread that all beginning open water divers should be able to tie a bowline with one hand while wearing a three finger mitten. We later had a PM exchange in which I challenged him on that, and he retracted it to a degree, saying he "supposed not" that it was that essential.

That would have been me. Here is the exchange that I had with Boulderjohn, in context with other people's PMs and names having been redacted:

From : Thalassamania
To : boulderjohn
Date : 2007-10-17 13:57
Title : Re: Knots
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Four ways to tie a bowline, with 3-finger mitts. But do not confuse what we do and refer to as an "entry-level" (since is is the first) course with an "Open Water" course such as is conventionally taught.

I don't understand your response. I thought you said originally that this skill should be a part of an OW course. I am well aware that it is not a part of such a course now. Are you saying it should be, and is that a part of the reason for the difference in the amount of time it takes for your course and for a typical OW course?

(User Name Removed) is full of it and twists everything around, he did that with that discussion too. We teach 4 ways to tie a one handed bowline as part of our entry level course, which is a 100 hour research diving course based on the Scripps/AAUS model that results in NAUI Master Diver certification. We teach those knots because that's what the Bosun on the ship insists that the divers know. Does that belong in a basic class? Probably not.

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From : Thalassamania
To : boulderjohn
Date : 2007-10-17 14:01
Title : Teaching
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I do not believe Thal is actually instructing any more, either. This is in his public profile:

I'm now semi-retired and work as a consulting taxonomist for a photo agency that represents twenty or so of the top nature (including underwater) photographers in the world. I continue my interests in underwater science; I teach a few private programs each year and write.​

Is that unclear?

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From : Thalassamania
To : boulderjohn
Date : 2007-10-17 18:16
Title : Re: Teaching Pt. 1
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Actually, I would argue that "a few programs a year" us not really being an active instructor.

I ran three courses this year to date. That represents 300 hours of hands on teaching, the equivalent of more than 15 of your "Standard" courses, and if you don't see that as "active" teaching, well, frankly I don't give a damn.

The point of the question deals with instructors who hae to deal with a public marketplace and earn something like a living at their craft. That was why you were asked what such a course costs. If a course is out of line with what people are willing to pay, then your program will not be sustainable in the long run. There is no doubt that a course that teaches to a NAUI mater diver level will better prepare students for diving success. But does that mean enough students will flock to a course that costs that much to make it a viable enterprise?

That is not the point at all. Your average Instructor lasts two to three years in the industry and then goes on to do something more remunerative. A few manage to hang in there an teach a class here and there whilst trying to work a job that will let them live decently. I know folks that get in excess of ten thousand dollars U.S. for a course (which, might I add is far less of a course than mine) because the are trusted to keep make sure that the student will survive no matter what happens, that they'll die first ... not something that your average instructor signs on for. As to the economic viability of 100 hour training, I presented an analysis in a thread a while back, because of the effect on the drop out rate and the increased spending of the students it is a very viable model, more profitable than the current regime. Having enough students flock to such a course is just a question of marketing, if students will believe the crap they've currently fed I a suspect that those who can afford it will make a discerning purchase. I don't see Rolls-Royce dealers going under, but then I don't see them on every corner either.

But for myself, I have no real interest in being "in trade" and thus no real concern as to what may actually be, or what you see as viable or sustainable. As long as I enjoy what I am doing, and it bring in enough money that my wife doesn't mind my taking time away from my consultancy, and my students enjoy themselves and feel that they are receiving value for what it costs them, who are you to judge?

I doubt it. I think that a program that made an OW course to the level of a master scuba course and charged accordingly would be out of business in a matter of months.

Then I suggest that you don't try and do so. It really makes no difference to me. There's a whole world of things out there that you'd think, due to the expense, would go out of business in a matter of months, yet they don't. $10,000 rides in supersonic fighter aircraft, $50,000 for flight lessons WWII style in an AT-6 and then a P-51. There's stuff that goes on, quite viably, that you'd not believe. Do you want Aikido lessons from Steven Segal (6th Dan last time I checked), it can be done.

In my opinion, we need a solid middle ground. To go back to the bowline example, the vast majority of divers will never see a three finger mitten, let alone wear one. The vast majority of divers will never see a knot tied under water, let alone tie one (outside of a required AOW exercise). For the few that will have to tie one, two hands will work nicely. From what you wrote earlier, I think we can agree that people get get an OW certification without needing that skill.

We need a solid middle ground? What you mean we? I do not need what you need. You need a program that you think you can make a buck on. I need a program that I can feel in my heart of hearts I done everything possible to prepare my students to not only be superlative divers but to be free enough from the distractions of simply staying alive underwater to be able to observe, collect, documents, measure and most importantly integrate that which they come in contact with. Our goals are not the same. You have the concerns of a tradesman, and if that is good for you so be it. I operate at the other end of the spectrum, I sometimes teach for nothing, of for just a plane ticket, a couch and a plate on the table and other times for substantial amount of money. That is what I do, that is were I want to be, and I thank the gods that my path has taken me to this place.

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From : Thalassamania
To : boulderjohn
Date : 2007-10-18 09:37
Title : Re: Teaching Pt II
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On the other hand, they need more than they are getting in many courses. I have written several times that my own OW course was inadequate. The resort operator I used cut all the corners and then went into the core. It was not until I actually saw the standards of instruction (PADI) that I realized how much had been cut.

Then give them what you think they need, that's your problem, not mine, my students already get what they perceive that they need.

I don't see how the basic skills can be taught adequately in some of the times I see listed, but I also do not believe that we need a 100 hour course to out the average diver into a safe and comfortable dive off the shores of St. Maarten. I believe that a diver who wants to go farther can and should get that additional training needed for that. It is not necessary to make the person who wants to dive on his Caribbean vacations learn to be a scuba god when it is not necessary.

I am not preparing students to, "Plop of the end of a boat into gin clear water like a dead tuna." in the now famous words of Tim Cahill writing in the old Sport Diver in a commentary entitled "On the Natural Superiority of California Divers." I am helping them discover how to deal, as effective juniors, with their colleagues, friends and family who explore the oceans all over the world. These are people who already know that they need to go farther than PADI or NAUI or GUE or any other part of the alphabet soup can take them.

When you think about where I am coming from, and what I do, you need to stop thinking inside your box, because I'm not in there.

I really don't have any problem at all with you doing what you do and preparing students the way you prepare them. I understand your "box," and am glad that there are people like you teaching the students who want that kind of preparation.

What I don't understand is why you insist that everyone else has to be in your box.

John

I don't. As I've said repeatedly, I think that 40 hours is about the right length for an entry level diving course. I think that shorter courses are inadequate. It's [User Name Deleated] who seems to think that his box is the end all be all, that everyone who puts in more than about 20 hours or who believes that classroom material comes first, and is backed up and augmented by a text is an egotist and an unskilled pedagogue. And frankly ... while this may not always be the case, I see the products of 20 hour courses all the time, they rarely can function underwater but their instructors think that they're great because, just like the students the instructors can't really function underwater either.

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Back to today:

Permit me to point out that the ability to tie a one-handed bowline, left and right, coming and going, is a basic element of many boating safety classes.

One Handed: The bowline can be tied with one hand - useful if injured, essential if you are using the other hand to hold on to the line or the boat!

.... The bowline can be extremely useful for self rescue in an emergency as it is one of the few safe and effective knots that can be tied with one hand.