Dumbing down of scuba certification courses (PADI) - what have we missed?

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

Among professional educators, "sage on the stage" is a commonly used phrase used to describe (and deride) the most common and, sadly, least effective mode of instruction traditionally used in classes. The phrase "guide on the side" is used to contrast it in referring to any of a number of alternate and more effective methodologies.

It's an interesting phrase but need not necessarily be a derisive one. Depending on your perspective, it can be a positive one. Some professional educators may perceive it as a negative. I view it as a sign of respect for the individual who is attempting to impart knowledge and wisdom on his/her target audience. The respect of course has to be earned, not just bestowed without justification. The words themselves are neutral. The intent determines it's interpretation.

I would hope that Instructors universally would strive to be competent sages to the students under their charge. The most common method may be ineffective not due to it's plan, but rather it's implementation. I have seen many well developed and well constructed methods be ineffective in achieving their goal due to the Instructors poor understanding of it's content, poor execution of its methodology, and failure to develop a method of conveying the plan to its target audience. Sometimes the plan is ineffective. Sometimes the one implementing the plan is inept. It can be quite a fine line determining which is which.
 
All the cutsie-pie terms that you might want to use, "Sage on the Stage," or whatever, do not obviate the reality that there are competent instructors out there who do a top drawer job of instruction using a combination of traditional teaching methodologies that include lecture. Similarly, the rare examples of stupid people tricks like pushups in full gear do not contradict the efficacy of carefuly guiding students through physically demanding programs of instruction that they often do not believe, at first blush, that they will be able to complete. Sure, both of those approaches are often the hallmarks of elite programs, but what's wrong with that? Why not give people the best that you have to offer and get the best that they are capable out of them? Maybe that's not the ideal approach for everyone ... but I yet to have a single student quit and I've only had one student fail to complete the course (and was due to a substance abuse issue).
 
It's an interesting phrase but need not necessarily be a derisive one. Depending on your perspective, it can be a positive one. Some professional educators may perceive it as a negative. I view it as a sign of respect for the individual who is attempting to impart knowledge and wisdom on his/her target audience. The respect of course has to be earned, not just bestowed without justification. The words themselves are neutral. The intent determines it's interpretation.

I would hope that Instructors universally would strive to be competent sages to the students under their charge. The most common method may be ineffective not due to it's plan, but rather it's implementation. I have seen many well developed and well constructed methods be ineffective in achieving their goal due to the Instructors poor understanding of it's content, poor execution of its methodology, and failure to develop a method of conveying the plan to its target audience. Sometimes the plan is ineffective. Sometimes the one implementing the plan is inept. It can be quite a fine line determining which is which.

The phrase is not derisive of the educator; there is nothing wrong with being a sage. It is derisive of a specific methodology that the sage would use when there are better choices available. There are times when being the sage on the stage is useful, but it is generally the least effective of a wide range of instructional tools available.

Unfortunately, many, perhaps most, educators know that tool only, and they therefore look with suspicion and even sneer at methodologies that do not look familiar to them.
 
The phrase is not derisive of the educator; there is nothing wrong with being a sage. It is derisive of a specific methodology that the sage would use when there are better choices available. There are times when being the sage on the stage is useful, but it is generally the least effective of a wide range of instructional tools available.

Unfortunately, many, perhaps most, educators know that tool only, and they therefore look with suspicion and even sneer at methodologies that do not look familiar to them.

I suppose it is relative to the methodology you speak of. And what you mean by being a Sage. The previous posts would suggest that it is the sage who is at fault since they are "pontificating loud and long" about things that are not relevant to the students education. If the Sage is implementing the methodology, then which is at fault? The success of the methodology is ultimately the determining factor. Because there are many to choose from, which ever ones reach the student most effectively would probably be considered the most successful. It has been left to the Instructor to determine what is successful. I think that too has been the spark of much debate in that some Instructors may set the bar so low that what is successful to one may be incomplete to another. I am still unclear as to why you believe that being a sage on the stage is the least effective method of educating students. My personal experience suggests to the contrary. Perhaps it rests in how we define a sage. My students, both diving and those in the medical community, have responded well to Educators whose presentations are thoughtful, informative, creative, and interactive. Engaging the audience in your presentation is extremely effective as a teaching tool. Getting them to move around, come up to the board to solve dive table problems, touching the gear and assembling it so that they can conceptualize the process are effective, IMHO, in driving home key educational bits of information. Being a Sage should always be a good thing. The Educator knows how to use his/her talents and abilities to maximize their students understanding and comprehension of the information before them. They can even take a bad methodology and find positive attributes within it to be useful. All of it is knowledge. Just a matter of how it's used.
 
Sure, both of those approaches are often the hallmarks of elite programs, but what's wrong with that?
I simply don't see the need for elitism in Scuba. I make my classes way fun and challenging in their own right. There is no need to make Scuba any more complicated than it already is!
Why not give people the best that you have to offer and get the best that they are capable out of them?
Or possibly just give them what they want and need?
Maybe that's not the ideal approach for everyone ...
You and I will just have to agree to agree on this! That's been my point for some time. :D
 
I suppose it is relative to the methodology you speak of. And what you mean by being a Sage. The previous posts would suggest that it is the sage who is at fault since they are "pontificating loud and long" about things that are not relevant to the students education.
There are simply way toooooo many dive stories interwoven into today's typical classes. They do more to confuse the student and they stem from the instructor trying to establish themselves as being credible sources. When I do a full lecture class, I take care to limit those kinds of self aggrandizing featurettes. They are wonderful in non-traditional teaching situations like here on ScubaBoard, but they are seldom needed where time and attention spans are limited.

Focus is a concept that many educators miss. It's easy to turn something simple into a chaotic mess if you lack focus in your teaching regimen. Why spend hours beating around the bush, instead of minutes (or seconds) getting to the point? Perhaps I teach a very feng shui scuba class in it's approach to learning and to diving.
 
Last edited:
NetDoc:
I simply don't see the need for elitism in Scuba. I make my classes way fun and challenging in their own right. There is no need to make Scuba any more complicated than it already is!

No arguments there. Unfortunately the typical class does make it too complicated.

NetDoc:
There are simply way toooooo many dive stories interwoven into today's typical classes.

There are no dive stories woven into today's typical class unless those stories are on the DVD. Many instructors plug in the DVD and have a student wake them when it's over.
 
There are simply way toooooo many dive stories interwoven into today's typical classes. They do more to confuse the student and they stem from the instructor trying to establish themselves as being credible sources. When I do a full lecture class, I take care to limit those kinds of self aggrandizing featurettes. They are wonderful in non-traditional teaching situations like here on ScubaBoard, but they are seldom needed where time and attention spans are limited.

Focus is a concept that many educators miss. It's easy to turn something simple into a chaotic mess if you lack focus in your teaching regimen. Why spend hours beating around the bush, instead of minutes getting to the point? Perhaps I teach a very feng shui scuba class in it's approach to learning and to diving.

There are way too many stories that actually ring true for many divers. Not everything that you learn from diving can be found in a book, on a DVD, or on a computer. The lives of divers are tremendously enriched through the experiences and stories that other divers have to tell. There would be no ScubaBoard if we adhered to your philosophy. I dare say that I have learned more about scuba diving and Instructing from the people I have interacted with in this forum than I ever did from books or lectures on diving. I am not sure Instructors are putting themselves out there as credible sources. I believe that they seek to educate their students since there may be more than one way to achieve a goal. It becomes a chaotic mess if the Instructor does not temper these stories with their wisdom and guidance. Rather than limiting the flow of knowledge, Instructors should educate students on how to process the knowledge and critically analyze the information they are receiving so that they can truly becoming thinking, self sufficient, competent divers.

Being too narrowly focused is a dangerous concept practiced by too many people these days. I am not sure what hours you speak of. It does not take hours to discuss aspects of scuba diving that do not appear in a book. It does not take hours to illustrate a salient point. It can take minutes to pass over a crucial piece of information. It can take minutes to rush through educational content that demands more attention. It can take minutes to overwhelm a student who requires more attention. I am not sure what time you feel is being wasted on a students education. It is not necessarily the time spent but the content given that should be the focus. IMO.
 
I suppose it is relative to the methodology you speak of. And what you mean by being a Sage. The previous posts would suggest that it is the sage who is at fault since they are "pontificating loud and long" about things that are not relevant to the students education.

Actually, that has not been the primary thrust of my posts. That really isn't the main methodological problem, although it could be when it is done.

Because there are many to choose from, which ever ones reach the student most effectively would probably be considered the most successful. It has been left to the Instructor to determine what is successful.
That's true.

I think that too has been the spark of much debate in that some Instructors may set the bar so low that what is successful to one may be incomplete to another.

That is one of the drawbacks of the traditional approach to education and assessment. Add to this the notion promoted by a false conclusion drawn because of poor research methodology by the famed Coleman Report (1966) that suggested that academic achievement was primarily determined by the capabilities of the student and was beyond the control of the instructor. This led teachers for 30 years to conclude that the only way to have some students meet academic standards was to lower the standards to meet the level of th students. Research over the past few decades has shown the opposite, that proper application of effective methodologies can make any student succeed at a high level. The approach among knowledgeable educators today is to raise the student to the level of the standards. That is supposed to be the thinking beyond No Child Left Behind (which is significantly flawed in its approach to the problem).

One (and only one) of the Coleman flaws was that pretty much everybody was using ineffective instructional methods in those days. When you use ineffective methods, many students will have the ability to overcome them and achieve at a reasonably high level, but some students cannot overcome those instructional flaws and will fail. When you use superior instructional strategies, you help those failing students succeed, and the students who would have succeeded anyway will do even better than before.

Coleman's primary flaw, though, was that he measured whole school performances and compared them, finding that the performance of the average student in a school was closely aligned with the student's socio-economic status. If he had compared teacher to teacher, he would have found that within each school individual teachers were succeeding or failing with students in dramatically different levels, and their success or failure was primarily tied to inistructional methodology.

In fact, recent research has indicated that much of what we call native intelligence is actually a set of skills learned in the first years of life. Applying certain strategies (even during a lecture) with this in mind can have a dramatic impact on learning, and students can even be taught those missing skills later in life, in effect becoming more intelligent. One such general strategy has been shown to have the greatest effect increase on student achievement of all other strategies.

I am still unclear as to why you believe that being a sage on the stage is the least effective method of educating students.

Because decades of research has shown it to be true. I can't think of a single major educational theorist who would say otherwise. Bob Marzano has compiled several metastudies of this research in case you are interested. Other theorists you might want to look into are Grant Wiggins, Jay McTigue, Rick Stiggins, Carol Ann Tomlinson, Chris Dede, Michael Fullan, Rick DuFour ...(I can go on).

My personal experience suggests to the contrary.

How much have you studied alternative approaches, and how many have you tried? Check out Wiggins and Marzano especially and see how much of what they have written about is in your repertoire.

As Maslow said, if the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.
 
There would be no ScubaBoard if we adhered to your philosophy.
Yet, ScubaBoard is NOT a formal class. Anecdotal teaching is GREAT in almost any non-traditional class. There is no curricula that we must follow here. Do not think that I am against learning, as that is not my thrust. I am FOR making learning Scuba as accessible as possible. I see e-learning as a wonderful way to make it happen for SO MANY who could not commit to a specific schedule of traditional classes for whatever reason. Moreover, I was amazed at how well those who have taken these e-learning Scuba Academic classes understand diving physics and many other aspects of diving. I no longer am amazed as I see this wonderful comprehension by them as more of a given.
I dare say that I have learned more about scuba diving and Instructing from the people I have interacted with in this forum than I ever did from books or lectures on diving.
I would say "You're welcome", but in truth it's the users of ScubaBoard that make this place so special and NOT the owner. Those who really want to learn often make their way here and find a medium largely free from rancor in which to exposit and formulate ideas about diving. I tend to be the voice of inclusion here. I hate to see any group edged out for most any reason. There is a place for just about every discipline of diving here on ScubaBoard.
 

Back
Top Bottom