Dumbing down of scuba certification courses (PADI) - what have we missed?

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Let's for the moment stipulate that PADI will permit a personal overriding standard.

How much training is usually required (300bar, SteveAD and anyone else who'd like to kick in) and in what training group size and student to staff ratio do you use to bring your students along to the point where your "diving with someone I love" personal standard (or something similar) is met?
 
Let's try to answer this the way I see it.

I agree with you in tems of the way a course SHOULD be run, but I've been shown, during this same topic argument, that PADI redefines "mastery" so that in terms of their standards it does not actually mean what you and I (or anyone else with a dictionary and a brain for that matter) would take it too mean.

On the PADI scale (1 to 5) 1 = student failed to perform the skill.5 = Student has a 100% mastery on this skill.
This is up to the instructor to judge,as would it be with all other agencies.
So if they can do it or come close to the way I do it they pass.If not they redo untill I'm sure the will perform in the openwater to meet a 4 or 5.

Let's for the moment stipulate that PADI will permit a personal overriding standard.

How much training is usually required (300bar, SteveAD and anyone else who'd like to kick in) and in what training group size and student to staff ratio do you use to bring your students along to the point where your "diving with someone I love" personal standard (or something similar) is met?

How much is up to the student,how many is up to me.
For pooltraining a max of 4 per instructor,less when students have problems.1:1 if need be.

For OW 2 per instructor max.DM in training allways added.
Cert.DM or AI when need be.

I know PADI standards give other max.numbers but they also state to adept to conditions.
When working in Curacao we did 4 students per instructor,again when needed more staff.

How much pooltime,again student depending min.6-7hours but when studends fail the initial time frame, they just go on untill they meet MY (4 or 5) standards.

I allways inform students that they MAY be able to do the OW in 7/8 weeks,but sometimes it takes as long as needbe.

IMO the whole problem with this discussion is the fact that some instructors accept the absolute minimum in standards.

This is not a PADI problem but a instructor problem.It will and does happen in any agency.Be it PADI,YMCA,CMAS or whatever.
 
I really liked what you were saying until you you got to:

300bar:
IMO the whole problem with this discussion is the fact that some instructors accept the absolute minimum in standards.

This is not a PADI problem but a instructor problem.It will and does happen in any agency.Be it PADI,YMCA,CMAS or whatever.

Of course it's an agency problem. Agencies should write their minimums so that meeting them produces the quality they want from their divers. An instructor is allowed to accept the absolute minimums in the standards. Instructors are allowed to do so by the agencies. If those absolute minimums aren't high enough, the agencies need to raise them. Until agencies do raise their standards, I agree we should encourage instructors to exceed those minimums. Don't blame instructors for doing what the agencies have said is OK.

As for how you teach your class, I'm impressed by your dedication to doing things the right way.
 
I really liked what you were saying until you you got to:
Of course it's an agency problem. Agencies should write their minimums so that meeting them produces the quality they want from their divers. An instructor is allowed to accept the absolute minimums in the standards. Instructors are allowed to do so by the agencies. If those absolute minimums aren't high enough, the agencies need to raise them. Until agencies do raise their standards, I agree we should encourage instructors to exceed those minimums. Don't blame instructors for doing what the agencies have said is OK.

Let's see how this works in other areas of education.

Over the last few decades, a number of educational researchers have tried to do studies in which they compared the effectiveness of one educational program to another. In theory, one should be able to look at the educational results of a school that has adoped one program and compare it with the educational results of another program. The problem is that most researchers have found this to be an impossibility because no matter what program the schools adopted, once an individual teacher closed the door of the classroom, that teacher tended to revert to whatever he or she had always done, which was usually the way he or she had been taught originally.

This was the major flaw in one of the most famous educational studies of all time, the Coleman report of 1968. This report compared the results of schools and determined that instructional methods really didn't matter, for educational results were determined by the skills and the socio-economic status of the students attending the school. That mistaken conclusion is still haunting us today.

Coleman's report compared whole school results. Later studies, notably the Starr studies in Tennessee, examined the effects of individual teachers on student achievement and found significant differences, even within the same school. Some teachers demonstrated excellent achievement results year after year, and others had consistently poor acheivement results year after year. One study I recently read indicated that if a child were identified as at-risk for reading in 2nd grade but had two consecutive years of demonstrated good instruction in 3rd and 4th grade, that child would almost be guaranteed to become a proficient reader. In contrast, a child who was not at risk in 2nd grade would be at risk for being a non-reader by 5th grade following two consecutive years of poor teaching. Research over the last few decades has totally reversed Coleman: it is the individual classroom teacher and the instructional decisions that teacher makes that have the greatest impact on education.

I myself conducted research studies of this kind. In one school's performance on a 10th grade writing assessment, the school reported 57% of students proficient. There were eight 10th grade teachers. Two had 100% proficient, two had more than 80% proficient, and the remaining four were below 20%. These are eight teachers in the same school, with years of training, the same credentials, the same program, and the same administrator oversight.

In my current work, I oversee the instructional theory behind the design and development of course curricula. We interview curriculum writers carefully to get the best prepared candidates possible, we train them to our system, and we oversee the results. Believe me, dealing with their screwups is the biggest headache in my daily life. They all tend to go their own way rather than the direction we have set for them.

Although I never finished my dissertation, I did complete all the course work for my Ph.D. The quality of the courses I took in graduate school was ridiculously uneven. In one memorable course, the syllabus had less than a 10% overlap with the title of the course. In another course, the obviously alcoholic professor missed 25% of the classes and was late for pretty much all the rest. We complained, and the professor was obviously spoken to, but that really did not do much for our education.

So, if the world of professional education, with all of its resources, professional training, and close oversight, cannot manage the quality of its instructors, why would any agency be able to do better?
 
Of course it's an agency problem.
I tend to disagree,ALL agencies set a minimum standard,we,(instructors) go by the minimum or not.
Agencies should write their minimums so that meeting them produces the quality they want from their divers.
IMO that is what PADI is doing,on the 1 to 5 scale,students need to meet atleast a 3,perform the skill with confidence.
An instructor is allowed to accept the absolute minimums in the standards.
Yes as with any agency. (Instructors are allowed to do so by the agencies).
If those absolute minimums aren't high enough, the agencies need to raise them. Until agencies do raise their standards, I agree we should encourage instructors to exceed those minimums.
No,instructors should do what's needed for there locality and then some.[/quote]
Don't blame instructors for doing what the agencies have said is OK.
Yes I do blame them,I've seen students from several agencies,not able to do a simple mask clearing.And to add to that,most problems where NOT PADI students.(I'm not goining to bash an other agency)

As for how you teach your class, I'm impressed by your dedication to doing things the right way.

Thanks,I'm just doing what's best for MY students.:D
 
I tend to disagree,ALL agencies set a minimum standard,we,(instructors) go by the minimum or not. IMO that is what PADI is doing,on the 1 to 5 scale,students need to meet atleast a 3,perform the skill with confidence.

Confidence? Or competence?
 
Let's for the moment stipulate that PADI will permit a personal overriding standard.

How much training is usually required (300bar, SteveAD and anyone else who'd like to kick in) and in what training group size and student to staff ratio do you use to bring your students along to the point where your "diving with someone I love" personal standard (or something similar) is met?

Let's try to answer this the way I see it.

On the PADI scale (1 to 5) 1 = student failed to perform the skill.5 = Student has a 100% mastery on this skill.

This is up to the instructor to judge,as would it be with all other agencies.
So if they can do it or come close to the way I do it they pass.If not they redo untill I'm sure the will perform in the openwater to meet a 4 or 5.

How much is up to the student,how many is up to me.
For pooltraining a max of 4 per instructor,less when students have problems.1:1 if need be.

For OW 2 per instructor max.DM in training allways added.
Cert.DM or AI when need be.

I know PADI standards give other max.numbers but they also state to adept to conditions.
When working in Curacao we did 4 students per instructor,again when needed more staff.

How much pooltime,again student depending min.6-7hours but when studends fail the initial time frame, they just go on untill they meet MY (4 or 5) standards.

I allways inform students that they MAY be able to do the OW in 7/8 weeks,but sometimes it takes as long as needbe.
I think that we will agree that either what you say about the capablities of your students is true or it is not. The problem is that the answer to that question requires an impartial outside observer and an agreed to performance standard. Allow me to cite what I call Egstrom's Law (e.g., 17 repetitions of air sharing skills are required during training if you want to have 95% confidence that it will work after training). If your standard is that you only need 95% confidence that your students have mastered the skill (not 100%) where is the time to provide those 17 repetitions, not to mention the repetitions that are needed for other skills? In my experience I've not found that can be done with less than 30 hours of water work. Perhaps Glen's study was flawed? Perhaps my assessment is inacurate? Perhaps you're overestimating the abilities of your students? Somethink has to give.
IMO the whole problem with this discussion is the fact that some instructors accept the absolute minimum in standards.

This is not a PADI problem but a instructor problem.It will and does happen in any agency.Be it PADI,YMCA,CMAS or whatever.
I fell that this is an agency problem. If standards are so low or so loose as to permit a below par candidate to obtain an instructor credential (by meeting low standards) and to teach below par courses (that still meet standards) that is an agency problem. I'm not saying PADI is the only agency to have this problem, they clearly are not. they are just the pioneer in its creation.
 
So in summary then you have no documentation or proof whatsoever for your claims and are completely unable to back them up. You're stating an entire case based on something you allegedly heard off 1 guy in 1 shop and passing it off as deluded. The fact the rest of the planet including people who really should know about these things are completely unaware appears to have bypassed you as well.

I am a witness to a 5 star course director stating to his instructors and divemasters that it has been observed that PADI believes at HQ that all PADI professionals should and must strongly encourage their new basic OW1 trainees to enroll quickly in the AOW course in order to lessen the odds of their experiencing a fatality soon after OW1 training.

Why?

Are you a PADI OWSI, String?

Did you not get the word on this?
 
I just checked DAN's 2007 report on dive injuries and fatalities. Here are the statistics on fatalities.

Certification Levels (p. 51): They had information on 55 people, about half the total fatalities. Here is the breakdown:

Student: 1
OW only: 9
Advanced or specialty: 13
Higher certification: 22

Years since certification (p. 51):This one is in percents. They report this one in a bar graph, and I have to make a slight estimate on a couple.

<1: 10%
1 : 15%
2: 10%
3-5: 10%
6-10: 20%
>10: 35%

The full report suggests that the primary cause of fatalities is more likely to be linked to physical fitness than to other factors.

So 1 year or less equals 25%, apparently.

I, too, would give anything to know the cert agencies of the fatalities.
 

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