Dumbing down of scuba certification courses (PADI) - what have we missed?

[boulderjohn]

Is the DAN accident report available online?

DAN Divers Alert Network

I believe you have to be a member to access the report. I did a search and was prompted to log in before I got it. If you are not a member and don't wish to join, I can send it to you.

 

[300bar]

I applaud your values and enthusiasm. As I understand them, that's still outside of standards.

Where in the PADI standards does it say,students have to meet our goals in one goJust as SteveAD,I go on and on,just to bring students up and over the minimum reqierments.

There is allway's the disscusion on the MINIMUM standards,yes some will go that way.
Most will not.

 

[Thalassamania]

My understanding, correct me if I'm wrong, is that PADI standards require that you certify the student if they meet PADI Standards for the course.

 

[Walter]

My understanding, correct me if I'm wrong, is that PADI standards require that you certify the student if they meet PADI Standards for the course.

It's under General Standards and Proceedures in bold. Bold means it is a requirement and not a recommendation.

"If you advertise a diver training course as a PADI course, you must conduct it following PADI training standards and issue a PADI certification to all divers who satisfactorily meet the performance requirements."

When Steve says, "I also have one overriding standard, which is "would I dive with this person?" If they're not a good enough diver for me to go out diving with, they don't get the card," he is in violation of PADI standards when he doesn't issue a PADI certification to folks who've met PADI requirements but don't meet his "overriding standard." I applaud his overriding standard, but he's not allowed to apply it with a PADI course. To apply it without violating standards, he has to teach with an agency that allows such a standard to be added. NAUI and Y come to mind as agencies that allow such an addition.

 

[SteveAD]

It's under General Standards and Proceedures in bold. Bold means it is a requirement and not a recommendation.

"If you advertise a diver training course as a PADI course, you must conduct it following PADI training standards and issue a PADI certification to all divers who satisfactorily meet the performance requirements."

When Steve says, "I also have one overriding standard, which is "would I dive with this person?" If they're not a good enough diver for me to go out diving with, they don't get the card," he is in violation of PADI standards when he doesn't issue a PADI certification to folks who've met PADI requirements but don't meet his "overriding standard." I applaud his overriding standard, but he's not allowed to apply it with a PADI course. To apply it without violating standards, he has to teach with an agency that allows such a standard to be added. NAUI and Y come to mind as agencies that allow such an addition.

WRONG!!!

The following is exerpted from the PADI OW instructor manual section one, course standards and overview:

Performance Based Training
The PADI Open Water Diver course builds upon the concept of performance-based
learning. This means student divers progress through the course by demonstrating
that they meet measurable learning objectives. The course’s instructional design
sequences these objectives from simple to complex, so students build upon previous
learning as they progress. Attempting to learn something without mastering
prerequisite objectives can complicate and interfere with development and learning.
For this reason, students must satisfactorily demonstrate meeting
knowledge development and water skills performance requirements
(objectives) in their required sequences. Satisfactory demonstration is called
“mastery,” which, along with sequence requirements, is discussed in more detail
throughout this guide.

Students are required to demonstrate "mastery" of all information and skills. While some instructors may define "mastery" of mask clearing for example as the ability to get most of the water out of a flooded mask with only a little bit of choking, and uneasiness falling short of full blown panic, I define mastery of that same skill as the ability to do so calmly, quickly, efficiently and repeatedly, on demand.

Mastery means you have it down cold! I don't argue that there are not instructors who will sign off on any yahoo who can struggle thru the required list of skills, but no where in standards does it say that a single sucess on a "problem skill" for a student demonstrates mastery.

 

[Thalassamania]

Mastery means you have it down cold! I don't argue that there are not instructors who will sign off on any yahoo who can struggle thru the required list of skills, but no where in standards does it say that a single sucess on a "problem skill" for a student demonstrates mastery.

I agree with you in tems of the way a course SHOULD be run, but I've been shown, during this same topic argument, that PADI redefines "mastery" so that in terms of their standards it does not actually mean what you and I (or anyone else with a dictionary and a brain for that matter) would take it too mean.

 

[SteveAD]

I agree with you in tems of the way a course SHOULD be run, but I've been shown, during this same topic argument, that PADI redefines "mastery" so that in terms of their standards it does not actually mean what you and I (or anyone else with a dictionary and a brain for that matter) would take it too mean.

I will continue to argue that it is not PADI redefining mastery, it is the individual sub-par instructors. At a minimum you at least have to admit that while incompetence is certainly out there, PADI does not discourage competence.

 

[Walter]

WRONG!!!

Read it again, Steve. I suspect you missed part of my post.

....he is in violation of PADI standards when he doesn't issue a PADI certification to folks who've met PADI requirements but don't meet his "overriding standard."

If the only folks to whom you don't issue a certification are those who've not yet met PADI standards, you are within standards. OTOH, if you use your "overriding standard" to not issue certifications to those who have met PADI standards, you are in violation of PADI standards. I don't know if your "overriding standard" is really an "overriding standard" or not. If it is, it's not allowed by PADI.

o·ver·rid·ing - taking precedence over all other considerations.

o·ver·ride - 1. to prevail or have dominance over; have final authority or say over; overrule: to override one's advisers.
2. to disregard, set aside, or nullify; countermand: to override the board's veto.
3. to take precedence over; preempt or supersede: to override any other considerations.
4. to extend beyond or spread over; overlap.
5. to modify or suspend the ordinary functioning of; alter the normal operation of.

 

[Thalassamania]

It is not PADI redefining mastery, it is the individual sub-par instructors.

Would that that were the case.

During the Confined Water Dives,
mastery is defined as performing
the skill so it meets the stated
performance requirements in a
reasonably comfortable, fluid,
repeatable manner as would be
expected of an Open Water Diver.
A student who manages to meet the
stated performance requirements in
such a way that it raises a question
as to whether the student could reliably
perform the skill for multiple
repetitions has not met the definition
of mastery. Beginning student divers
need not perform a skill with the
polish expected of a divemaster, but
should practice until you are confident
they can perform the skill reliably.

There are several threads that try to figure out what that means: On Mastery, standards and the breaking of and my exchange with Jviehe starting with post 22 on page 3 of How fast is too fast.

 

[Standingbear56]

WRONG!!!

The following is exerpted from the PADI OW instructor manual section one, course standards and overview:

Performance Based Training
The PADI Open Water Diver course builds upon the concept of performance-based
learning. This means student divers progress through the course by demonstrating
that they meet measurable learning objectives. The course’s instructional design
sequences these objectives from simple to complex, so students build upon previous
learning as they progress. Attempting to learn something without mastering
prerequisite objectives can complicate and interfere with development and learning.
For this reason, students must satisfactorily demonstrate meeting
knowledge development and water skills performance requirements
(objectives) in their required sequences. Satisfactory demonstration is called
“mastery,” which, along with sequence requirements, is discussed in more detail
throughout this guide.

Students are required to demonstrate "mastery" of all information and skills. While some instructors may define "mastery" of mask clearing for example as the ability to get most of the water out of a flooded mask with only a little bit of choking, and uneasiness falling short of full blown panic, I define mastery of that same skill as the ability to do so calmly, quickly, efficiently and repeatedly, on demand.

Mastery means you have it down cold! I don't argue that there are not instructors who will sign off on any yahoo who can struggle thru the required list of skills, but no where in standards does it say that a single sucess on a "problem skill" for a student demonstrates mastery.

When I attended PADI college in 87-88, part of the mastery of a skill was for the instructor to specify the exact requirements needed to master the skill. To set the bar so to speak. Using the reference above for mask clearing, we could simply state: "You must totally clear your mask of all water using a maximum of 2 breaths. This must be done calmly, quickly, efficiently and repeatedly upon demand and/or need. Before open water dives, you must master this skill to the level that I would feel comfortable with you diving with someone I love to the maximum level of your training and experience." (emphisis mine)Thus this level of mastery of each and every skill must be achieved BEFORE proceeding to OW dives or getting a referral. On open water dives the same standards are applied, except that they are doing the skills without any demonstration from the instructor. If the instructor needs to demo a skill during the OW portion of the course then the student has not met mastery. If the student cannot demonstrate mastery of any skills to the point that I would feel comfortable with them diving with someone I love, they have not reached mastery and do not pass. This was taught at the PADI college, and was backed by PADI HQ. The "diving with someone I love statement" was used by all of us during our IDCs and IE's. For our IE's we were evaluated by CDs from HQ. If this stated standard were not allowed, they we all would have failed on a standards violation. In fact, the total opposite happened - we were commended for keeping the standards high. Thus the "diving with someone I love" standard is allowed.
The problem is not the level of the standards, but the individual instructor's interpetation of those standards. IMHO, this is where the true problem lies.
Safe Diving,
George