#$%#$%@# Dive Training!

[crispos]

Some students, particularly older people, don't do as well as their children. Sometimes, we are given 2 weekends to turn someone who has NEVER SNORKELED, hardly ever swam, maybe never been in the deep end, into a competent scuba diver. Hell, I've had OWW students that looked like they have never seen a scuba kit. Did you hear that? Not knowing the details, were you at the O/W checkout yourself, Genesis?

My swim test is a 9 lengths (225 yard swim) with a 15 minute water tread. My last dive is an u/w swim at 30-40 feet, with everyone trimmed horizontal off the bottom like a regular bunch of certified divers on a Caribbean reef tour. Pretty freaking amazing given there is often only 2 weekends between. I don't put my name on the C-card otherwise.

We teach them to drive but maybe they don't do all the maneuvers perfectly, particularly the first time they are out there on the highway.
Your rant is not valid. Try instructing for a living, and get back to us.

 

[Genesis]

Your rant is not valid. Try instructing for a living, and get back to us.

Yes, I was at the checkout. I was not part of the class (not permitted to be, you see) but I was in the water at the same time. I saw PART of the skill evaluation and demonstration, but not all. Having students do skills kneeling on the bottom doesn't help with evaluating their buoyancy control, does it?

I won't even start on what I saw that day. Granted, most of it was other students and instructors (this shop allows other instructors and students to buy spots on their boats for OW checkouts), but some of it was RIGHT SCARY.

As a particularly ugly example I witnessed an instructor have his student DOFF HIS WEIGHT BELT at 57'. You read that right - he did the remove and replace skill for the belt at the bottom. Looked to be easily 12-15 lbs on there too. What do you think would have happened if he had DROPPED it? Is there any need to elaborate on the stupidity of that smooth move?

Or can we go into another area perhaps? This was an SSI class. After the second dive (yes, after!), back at the shop while filling out the logbooks for the dive, it was discovered that with the surface interval they did the SSI tables would not have permitted the second dive to have been made. So they did the logbooks on the PADI tables, which did permit the second dive.

Appropriate dive planning? Ex-freaking-scuse me? The students were ran off the end of the NDL tables for the agency in question and that's "ok", 'cause we can find a DIFFERENT table that permits the dive to be completed?

I'm not saying that my g/f's skill set is really much worse than anyone ELSE who comes out of these classes. It probably isn't! Hell, I saw plenty of "certified divers" on that same boat that same day doing the churn and burn deal too. I was the only diver doing my safety stop that day hanging motionless OFF the anchor line, mostly to avoid having some one come crashing into me and kicking my mask off my face.

The point is that by no estimation are these divers safe in the water, the dive planning skills demonstrated were non-existant, and these are so-called professionals.

In all honesty the particular "issue" my g/f has is one that I can easily take care of by diving with her a bit. We've talked about it already, and I'm going to fix her up with a tank of 32% this weekend on the same wreck where she certified for the express purpose of being able to get LOTS of bottom time and skill practice in. We're going to go down there and do buoyancy until she can decend without touching the line, yet parallel to it from the boat down to the sand, and ascend along it without touching it. Only THEN do I believe she is qualified as a real OW diver. Her daughter will likely be with us too; we'll ALL do it, together, as many times as we have to, and we'll stay within the tables - planning the dives and diving the plans.

I've seen some of the results of the so-called "training" sold these days, but until now I've not watched from start to finish. I urged my g/f to hold back on the OW certs for a couple of weeks to get more pool time, even though my pool is very shallow (5' max depth!) so she could get more time working on mask skills - she just wasn't comfortable taking it off underwater, and if you choke when its kicked off your face you're screwed!

But now, with it all behind both of them, and having seen the results, I believe that change is needed - and real, defined skill demonstrations instead of "loosey-goosey" things like "show buoyancy control."

If you're unhappy with the imposition of this accountability as an instructor, perhaps its because your students don't meet the standard proposed!

 

[crispos]

I only answer this so I can get back to what I am most concerned with:
diver education and diver safety. You are upset, Genesis, I understand why, now. But get off it. Emotionalism kills in our line of work.

If the Instructor was performing doff and don of weight belt at 57 feet in front of students, then he/she was probably violating standards. I am not SSI so I don't know, but it would not be allowed under PADI. Ditto with extending a second dive past tables. Report the instructor to his/her association (you were an eye witness) and stop ranting here.

If you "fix her up with 32%", you are violating standards as your g/f is not certified to dive Nitrox.

 

[Genesis]

I only answer this so I can get back to what I am most concerned with:
diver education and diver safety. You are upset, Genesis, I understand why, now. But get off it. Emotionalism kills in our line of work.

So does "training" that does not meet minimum requirements for producing divers who can function in open water. In this case, had these two taken their newly-minted C-cards on a boat together, and dove as buddies, I'd likely be getting notice of one (and perhaps both) of their obituaries.

That is unacceptable and it is purely as result of the fact that the agency has no documented standards for what constitutes "proper buoyancy control."

That MUST change.

If the Instructor was performing doff and don of weight belt at 57 feet in front of students, then he/she was probably violating standards. I am not SSI so I don't know, but it would not be allowed under PADI.

Oh, you didn't read what I wrote correctly. The instructor wasn't performing a doff and don at 57'. He had his STUDENT perform the doff and don! A non-certified diver! PROBABLY violating standards?!

Anyone wanna take odds on that student holding his breath and embolizing if he had dropped the belt? From 57' and about 15lbs positive at 57' you could have seen a really nice imitation of a Polaris launch - he would have been close to +50 at the surface if his BC held that much air! My guess is that he would have come out of the water up to roughly his fins.

On the earlier boat, with my g/f's daughter, by the way, I saw an OW student in an OMS BP + "bondage wing", with a single tank, freak out on the surface. Before decending. And I do mean "freak out" in the classic sense of the word - tossed reg, tossed mask, would have tossed KIT if it wasn't strapped on!

I have no idea how much gas was in his wing, but aren't those bungie wings something like 70 or 100 lbs of lift? On a single tank eh? Nice configuration, no? I wonder how far HE would have come out of the water in an unintentional buoyant ascent? Wanna bet the shop (not the one that owns the boat, but the one that his instructor was from) sold him that kit?

Ditto with extending a second dive past tables. Report the instructor to his/her association (you were an eye witness) and stop ranting here.

I will not stop ranting here.

This is serious stuff.

The instructor didn't even know he had exceeded the tables until he got back to the shop! Neither did I, as I was diving on my computer with a 120 cube bottle of 32% I had mixed the previous day (one bottle for both dives) - I was WELL within the NDLs and had half my tank left on top of it. It was not until they went to do the logs at the shop - an hour later, after the boat ride back - that the problem was discovered.

Oh, and let me add another note on this wonderful "certification dive." See, she had my Vyper along - in gauge mode. Guess what? She got a major ascent alarm from 15' - after the safety stop - the instructor, instead of slowly leading them up for an ascent, just let them pop up. The profiles on the computer both have alarms (both dives!) for ascent rate on the last 15' of the ascent. Nice, eh? Yeah, real nice. (She has since come to understand why that's a REALLY bad idea, but at the time didn't even realize that it was happening - she was following the lead she was given!)

If you "fix her up with 32%", you are violating standards as your g/f is not certified to dive Nitrox.

I have no standards to violate except my own; I cannot have my "instructing card" rescinded, as I don't have one.

Therefore, the agencies can bite me.

As far as I'm concerned after witnessing this garbage over the last few weeks I cannot possibly "violate" anything with regards to the so-called "industry standards" for teaching people to dive.

There is nothing wrong with her breathing Nitrox on these upcoming dives. Nothing whatsoever. You CANNOT violate the MOD of a 32% mix on a hard bottom dive with the sand 60' below you.

Exactly what "risk" is there in diving that gas? Oh yeah, she can't buy it in a shop. That's nice - she doesn't have to. Its free (for her anyway) around here.

She's read the Nitrox book, has the table (mine), and hell, that's at least accurate - which is better than taking a class that, for $150, will likely include more grand demonstrations of "quality" instruction!

The agencies should drop their pretense of "instruction" and "certification", because from my recent experience that's ALL that it is.

 

[FreeFloat]

scubasean once bubbled...
...........But I don't recall the diff. between 3 and 7 mil. (probably a few pounds, depending on the diver).............

If it helps at all,
just in freshwater,
no tanks,
in my 2mil shorty (see my profile pic), I wear 3lbs.
Once I add the 5mil core warmer (which has no legs, but long sleeves) I go up to 7lbs and am only slightly more negative than I figure I ought to be, by 1/2 a pound or so.

 

[FreeFloat]

DeepScuba once bubbled...
Haha Hey EOD

.........We did the fin-pivot and hoover exercises............

I've got mt HOOVERING down to a science...........1.3cf/min/ATA at rest :tease:

What's a fin-pivot?

 

[DeepScuba]

It's when you go to the bottom and dig your fins into the ground, you then try to gently remove your feet from the fins, with the intent of leaving them stuck in the ground to "pivot" in the current.

It takes a lot of skill in bouyancy or you'll just pull them out.


Regards.


P.S. Oh yes, before anyone FREAKS on me, I'd better tell you..........


I am just kidding,....do not attempt this foolish move.:angel:

 

[SubMariner]

So we drop down to a nice reef at about 70' (her last two training dives were at 57', so this is not much deeper.) Its a little-dove and little-known natural reef around here, with the salient feature of it being that off the ledges the natural bottom surrounding it is MUD - not sand.

So, if you hit the bottom, you make a HUGE silt cloud and destroy the visability.

A couple of things:

1) To an experienced diver like yourself, there may not seem to be a big difference between 57' and 70', but there is to a newly certified diver. Especially when you are talking about additional compression of neoprene and the bouyancy issues that creates.

Likewise, depth does not automatically mean overt signs of N2 narcosis. Depth does, however, mean a slowing down of cognition and the ability to handle seemingly mundane tasks vs. how one handles them at shallower levels.

2) You obviously know a lot about the dive site, specifically about the bottom composition and how important it was to stay off the bottom. Did you relay that information to your dive buddy? Or simply assume that she would "be able to handle it"?

Please be a patient and more understanding with your g/f. She's a new diver and needs time to hone her dive skills. Only with your support will she continue to dive and be able to acquire the experience she needs to handle a variety of diving conditions.

Otherwise your lack of tolerance will simply turn her off diving.

~SubMariner~

 

[Genesis]

Please be a patient and more understanding with your g/f. She's a new diver and needs time to hone her dive skills. Only with your support will she continue to dive and be able to acquire the experience she needs to handle a variety of diving conditions.

I am being patient and understanding; I have no issue with HER diving, as you can't do what you didn't learn! We'll get it straightened out; I intend to go out this weekend with her and a bunch of tanks (of Nitrox, natch) and we're going to do nothing other than buoyancy control work. She's well aware of the problem, since she experienced the silt-out (it surprised her how fast the vis went to near-zero and she "gets it" as to why its important not to do that now!)

What irritates me is not that she doesn't have reasonable bouyancy control. She can't be expected to automatically know these things.

What irritates me is that she was signed off on without knowing it, that from her report they spent ZERO time on this skill in confined water, and that it was also not a requirement on her first two OW dives.

Effectively, the class had zero REAL value, other than buying a "pass" to get on some cattle boat if we are ever on vacation and want to dive somewhere.

I could have easily taught her more effectively than what she learned in this "class". THAT irritates me greatly. Oh sure, I'm not an "instructor", but I do recognize what skills are important - and buoyancy is equally important as being able to remove and replace/clear a flooded mask!

I have, over the last year on this board and elsewhere, often taken the point of view that the rants of the GU/DIR/Halcyon folks (and people like Mike F) about the sad state of training are overblown at best and self-serving commercial pablum at worst.

Well, I've changed my tune there. Two days of diving in the same water and close proximity to these OW checkouts, with about 15 students across a half-dozen instructors, all from different shops, have permanently disabused me from that notion.

I disagree with the GUE/Halcyon/DIR prescription for a fix (and in fact argue that most manufactuers, Halcyon included, are part of the cause), but no longer do I disagree with the diagnosis of the disease.....

 

[divermasterB]

Genesis...

Do you think that your girlfriend would still have been interested in taking up diving if it required that she commit 40-60 hours of her time for confined water and classroom instruction, plus 3-4 days for checkout dives?

Also,

How long ago were you certified?

How many dives have you logged since then?

Was your buoyancy absolutely PERFECT on your first Open water dives after your certification?

Did you learn everything you needed to know about diving from your OW class?

Do you think that in this rush, rush world that more people would be willing to take up scuba diving if the bar were raised as you are talking about, meaning that many more people would fail there diving course?

If shop A were offering a dive course that involved two weekends to get certified, and shop B offered one (at the same price, mind you) that required 4 hours, one night a week, for seven weeks, plus a weekend for OW checkout. Which one would have most success in selling their program?