DSS wing - not a donut - discuss

[MXGratefulDiver]

Am I the only person opting for the simplicity of dumping via the OPV?

No ... most experienced divers use both the rear dump (OPV) and the inflator hose for dumping on ascent.

What you are missing is a technique that precludes the problem you're describing. When in my doubles I can use the inflator hose to dump ... or can "equalize" the bubble on both sides of my wings ... with a slight "roll" of the shoulders from right to left. Yes, I have to get a bit heads-up to do it, but not very much at all. And it can be accomplished by arching my back, which only requires a slight change in the position of my upper body. Once the maneuver (which typically takes a second or two) is complete, you simply relax and you're back in trim.

OPV failures are never an issue above that of nuisance, and they are very simple mechanisms to maintain.

Not entirely true ... I was on a dive trip with Lamont recently when his rear dump (OPV) came off in his hand. Having a 2-inch diameter hole in your wing makes it rather difficult to use for its intended purpose. You now have to rely on your drysuit for buoyancy control ... or, if you don't have a drysuit, you now have only the option of swimming your rig to the surface (better hope it's not too negative).

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[hex92]

Forgive me if this has already been mentioned, but does the new Torus wing have a bottom dump? I have been thinking about replacing my Abyss wing (which is a FAT horseshoe) with the Torus.

 

[Humuhumunukunukuapua'a]

Forgive me if this has already been mentioned, but does the new Torus wing have a bottom dump? I have been thinking about replacing my Abyss wing (which is a FAT horseshoe) with the Torus.

Pretty sure the Torus has a bottom dump. It needs an OPV. Picture on the website shows the back, though...

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Forgive me if this has already been mentioned, but does the new Torus wing have a bottom dump? I have been thinking about replacing my Abyss wing (which is a FAT horseshoe) with the Torus.

Yes ... it's in the usual spot (lower left) ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Green_Manelishi]

Hi all,

And my only reservation:

1 - The DSS wing is a horseshoe and not a donut.

Is the donut shaped wing the only way to go, or is the DSS horseshoe wing just as good as the other single-tank wings?

Thanks for any input.

Gregg

I recently purchased a DSS horseshoe LCD30. I am amazed at how narrow it is in comparison to the worn-out wing it is replacing. I used it this past weekend and it was very "shweet".

Tobin makes great points in his posts and puts a lot of thought into his products. I do not believe you can go wrong with a purchase from him.

 

[veggiedog]

My dives often consist of swimming perpendicular to the incline of the lake bottom to maintain a constant depth. I often swim along in a horizontal position looking for things: neither heads up or heads down as I swim along. When I come to a location that looks promising, I descend the few feet to the bottom and examine whatever caught my attention. I might follow that item (e.g. what may be an anchor rope often leads to an anchor, so I follow it), and I often change depth in the process. During that time (e.g. with rope in hand), I am often heads down.

When I am not examing anything (often I don't find anything for several sweeps back and forth, changing depth on each sweep), I am more horizontal. If I get to the end of a sweep, I ascend a little, and then start back the other way. In that scenario, I often use the inflator dump, especially if I am already more heads up than horizontal. I do the heads up vent regularly and I am not trying to make it out to be difficult.

What I am trying to point out is that when I dive with the OxyCheq donut, I am not pushed towards either dump, I can choose either as simply as the other. In fact, I often choose the rear dump because it requires slightly less body contortion, and the bubble is easier to observe by feel. With the donut bladder, the bubble is not split between sides, and I can trivially vent it via the rear dump. Furthermore, when I dive with the donut, I feel very neutral in all directions.

I am a very active diver, and for me bouyancy, hovering, weightlessness, underwater maneuvers are probably the largest thrill I get from diving (keep in mind I am diving in a Southern fresh water lake with virtually no vegetation, limited visibility, ...). When I first tried out the OxyCheq donut, I was amazed. Granted, comparing it to the wide profile of my Zeagle and DiveRite RecWing doesn't shed light on the donut vs wing for singles debate, but I was nonetheless grinning from ear to ear and I have been enamored with it ever since.

One of the reasons I like the donut is that I don't have to worry about a split bubble in my bladder when I vent from the bottom dump. In fact, I only have to worry about heads down for bottom dump, heads up for inflator dump. If I go heads down by leaning to one side and I catch the bubble on one side, no problem, I merely lean and the bubble moves without restraint between sides. I am not trying to make this out to be a big thing, I know how to get the bubble to the vent, I am just trying to point out I don't even worry about that with a donut. I dive with manifolded doubles so that I don't have to manage independent air supplies. Its not hard to switch regulators, it just doesn't seem worth the extra work (as an analogy) given there is an easy solution (manifolds to connect the sides).

Although a malfunctioning bottom dump can be disconcerting, they rarely result in a major problem unless you are forced to ascend bottoms up, at which time they are more critical. You can easily dive with a bottom dump removed, just make sure you wash out your bladder when you get back (in addition to repairing the OPV).

Furthermore, I am trying to distance myself from DS considerations as I believe they are also being used to divert attention from the real issue: donuts do provide an advantage over wings for singles with regards to keeping the bubble either together, or trivially away from being together, and that in heads down diving this can be a big enough advantage to notice.

However, not having a narrow wing to compare to, I cannot say the donut would be more maneauverable than a narrow wing. In fact, I believe Tobin that the width of the bladder is a major factor in determing if the bubble is constrained closer to the plane of the backplate and consequently "crossing over" to the other side. However, I also suspect the simplicity of venting from the bottom dump on a donut is an advantage to that design that Tobin is conveniently overlooking (I am sure he is very knowledgable about bladders). He has already thrown out a straw man to divert attention from that by claiming OPVs are not dumps.

It is obvious Tobin's gear is top shelf and he is knowledgable. Nonetheless, I am trying to constrain him to the truth, and those issues do not bear on the discussion.

 

[fishb0y]

Veggiedog,

With a name like that, you sure like beating a dead horse...

(stolen from another post) We understand that you swim parallel to the bottom in a horizontal position, prefer donut wings and have aspirations of doing the same in a drysuit plus you want Tobin to agree with you. I think you have made your point. I do not want to put words in his mouth, but it looks like he has said that he will not make a single tank donut wing. If I was a designer and manufacturer of scuba equipment, I would make what I would prefer.

 

[cool_hardware52]

It is obvious Tobin's gear is top shelf and he is knowledgable. Nonetheless, I am trying to constrain him to the truth, and those issues do not bear on the discussion.

Are you implying that I have been less than truthful? If so how?

You may not dive a Dry Suit, but others do. I am always mindful that many more people read posts than make them, and I want any information I might provide here to be as broadly applicable as possible.

The facts here are pretty simple. I know how my gear works, I know what the design criteria were, I developed them. Others actual users have confirmed what I stated.

If you wish to speculate that my goods aren't what I claim I can't stop it.

Can a case be made that a donut is a better solution for a wetsuit diver, who never goes even slightly heads up, and is always either heads down or dead level? Well maybe, but IMO, that's a small minority.


Tobin

 

[veggiedog]

Are you implying that I have been less than truthful? If so how?

You may not dive a Dry Suit, but others do. I am always mindful that many more people read posts than make them, and I want any information I might provide here to be as broadly applicable as possible.

The facts here are pretty simple. I know how my gear works, I know what the design criteria were, I developed them. Others actual users have confirmed what I stated.

If you wish to speculate that my goods aren't what I claim I can't stop it.

Can a case be made that a donut is a better solution for a wetsuit diver, who never goes even slightly heads up, and is always either heads down or dead level? Well maybe, but IMO, that's a small minority.


Tobin

I did not mean to imply that you were not being truthful. It appeared to me that you were skirting the truth by providing straw men such as claiming OPVs are not dump valves. I realize you are trying to broad while I am trying to constrain to you to specific assertions. Furthermore, in this post, and a prior post, you resorted to exaggeration (e.g. "who never goes even slightly up, ...", your point about dual OPVs on Zeagles not being absolute proof,...). I was always only talking about me (an even smaller minority), and specific observations about the gear, plus a lay understanding of physical things.

Nonetheless, you did it, you made the assertion I was looking for, except I believe you constrained it more than is necessary (diver that never, always, ...). Without that small admission though, it appeared to me that you were talking in absolutes, and I was trying to point out that it wasn't absolute by sharing my minority experience. I am certain that you know more about majority usage patterns. And, to be fully honest, it smelled to me as though you were trying to make a sell and were frustrated that I provided a position contrary to yours (that there are advantages to a donut).

Come on, I never tried to speculate your goods are not what you claim.

 

[cummings66]

You may not dive a Dry Suit, but others do. I am always mindful that many more people read posts than make them, and I want any information I might provide here to be as broadly applicable as possible.
Tobin

I have been thinking lately that I'm going to switch to a BP/W rig and from this thread here today I have decided on which one. I'll tell you why.

I'm going with the DSS system because I am convinced by Tobin's posts that he knows what he's talking about and that I wouldn't miss the donut. I've recently started diving drysuits and I can tell you for a fact that what Tobin says is true, unless you put a valve in your feet. Suffice it to say that for me the system he's designed sounds like the answer to my dreams and I'll be buying one from wreckdivers soon. The price is good and the fact that Tobin is here to answer questions speaks volumes to his product.

Normally I prefer to buy from my LDS and hate to throw business away from the area because I believe local support is preferable, but in this case I think the product sounds good enough that I won't have that worry. It is a good thing my LDS doesn't have it, I'd be wearing it on this weekends dive when I really intend to get it in January.