DSAT Tech Deep Diver.

[Kim]

Thanks for all your comments - it gives me things to look out for! It's also nice to hear from the people who actually took the course that they enjoyed it so much!

As far as I am concerned, passing any kind of a test only provides a 'beginners' license. It's fairly obvious that you will not emerge as an 'experienced pro' !! Tests and courses only open the door to the next level - and hopefully provide you with the right tools so that you can then begin to build up that experience with practice. I must say though, although I have this in my planning for next year March/April, I'm already starting to get excited about it now!

 

[padiscubapro]

I agree with your mental training concept entirely. I'm just not sure that your could ramp everybody up to 1 hr deco's plus, within the time frame of say, a TDI Adv Nitrox/Deco course, which doesn't have a lot of diving in it. I think it would very much be student/team dependant.

Of course I agree that 30mins of deco is not a lot, but personally, I really can't fathom 2 hrs either! At least not where we come from. I'd be dang frosty by then!

I'd just like to leave the door open for the ones that I know simply want extended bottom time, Deco diving within Recreational depth's, which really won't require much more than 30 min deco with a single deco gas, generally speaking.

Regards

For the TDI ADV Nitrox/DECO proc class.. I think 30 mins of deco per dive is a good end point... with the first couple being ~15 mins.. 1 Hr is too much for that level of training for most divers...

 

[padiscubapro]

Maybe I am missing something there....The difference between simulated and real deco is what? I always assumed that if I did a simulated deco at say 45' for 30 mins, I was at 45' for 30 mins. The fact that I didn't have a actual (real?) deco obligation only meant that (1) if I screwed up badly, I could ascent and (2) I didn't need to spend the bottomtime at depth to create the deco obligation.

Assuming all of that is true, and maybe it was alluded to above, is there a real [not simulated ]mental difference to a diver who has a simulated stop vs a real stop....

Otter,

being prepared mentally can only be truely accomplished by making the conditions and circumstances as real as possible. I am not totally againt simulated deco, it has its traing merits, but its no substitue for the real thing. Depending on the class (RB or CCR) my 1st 1 or 2 "deco" dives are simulated and stated as such.. they have much more "deco" than is necessary, The student clearly knows this.. We go into the dives with this, knowing my goals for this particluar dive is to observe their technique and make adjustments to thier gear and allow for 1 big screw up.. AFter this dive is done, we go through a thorough debrief and then tallk about the next dive that will not have this wiggle room.. The first dive also safely allows the diver to realize what 30 minutes of deco is, its quite different than playing on a reef for 30 minutes..

Knowing you can ascend if you screw up is totally different than knowing you are stuck here no matter what..

I will use an incident that really happened.. I was diving with someone who was a Trimix ITT for some particular agency.. He was experienced at the depths were were diving, but he really never built up lots of deco (we were already heavily committed).. We were a buddy team and he had a MAJOR problem with his CCR.. We were in very high current (which he was not used to since almost all his dives were deep lakes in europe), upon this failure he had that look of a newbie on his face and tried to bolt from 80m.. I was within a body length and grabbed him, held him in place (and "safe") and got his thinking under control with a bit of fighting.. after this point his training did finally kick in and he knew what to do, the point being he was never exposed to this type of stress prior to this point and wasn't prepared MENTALLY.. He took this to heart and realized he need some more enviromental exposures and did some traveling and diving with those that he felt he could learn something from.. From what I have been told by friends that have dove with him before and after the incident, his training programs have changed for the better and so has his preparedness..

On this particular dive, even if he survived the ascent he probably would have been toast.. the layout of the wall and how the area had to be dived was very specific.. if he didn't ascent up the contour of the wall, he would have been caught in a current that he would not have been able to swim against or get oout of and would have been forced to basically open ocean.. His prior experiences never prepared him for that type of restriction..

 

[MikeFerrara]

Doc,
I accept there is a difference, but I really wonder how much it makes. Maybe its just me, but the stress of not wanting to 'fail' would be akin to 'not being able to ascend'..which I really could do (with probable dire consequences).

Just curious, in air-share drills or valve drills, are the OOA or equipment failures 'real'/created? Sucking down my last gulp of air at 180+ feet (or better yet, exhaling and then getting no breath) would certainly create some real stress.

I've always had OW students hold their depth til I told them not too...simulate deco? give them an extended range card? The thing about rewuired deco is that "according to the divers estimation" it's required and once in it there's no backing out. HUGE difference between deco and pretend deco althoug the hovering stays the same.

I'm just an inactive advanced nitroc instructor but when a student starts out wanting to learn diving beyond NDL's that's what they're going to do.

As an aside, If I remember right, both the guys I did my advanced trimix training with had real free flows on decompression bottles after 200+ ft dives with REAL deco ahead of them. Is that about right Steve? I'll tell you though while there was assistance there if needed, you'd have had to look close to even see that there was anything going on because no one was rattled. During training is a good time to try something like that for the first time. No biggie but if it aint real why not just head to the surface since you can? That's recreational diving...the surface is always an option.

 

[Otter]

Joe,
I agree wholeheartedly that making it as real as possible is the best way to really know for sure. Obviously, I would want to do my first and second REAL deco with an experienced instructor-type. Some emergency situations will only be simulated due to unreasonable risk, but clearly doing REAL deco doesn't qualify -- otherwise, we shouldn't deco dive....I just wonder how much it really improves the learning process....

 

[jasona111]

I've been looking into various tech classes, and can someone advise if I'm right in thinking that PADI (DSAT) is actually teaching less classes than say TDI, DSAT only seem to have TecDeep and Trimix, where as TDI have ADV Nitrox, Deco Procedures, Extended Range and then 2 tri mix courses.... do DSAT cover the same material as all those TDI classes, or is the DSAT material cut down?

Obviously I'd also need to do Wreck or Cave classes for penetrating things, but DSAT doesn't seem to have any of those.

 

[Scuba_Steve]

Agreed.

For the TDI ADV Nitrox/DECO proc class.. I think 30 mins of deco per dive is a good end point... with the first couple being ~15 mins.. 1 Hr is too much for that level of training for most divers...

 

[BigBoB]

I took the dsat class and went all the way through. I had a great time...but think that I would have had a better time had it been split up between deco, adv nitrox, etc.......would have been a little easier on the pocket book, as well. All of my ventures beyond this into tech diving will be with another agency due to PADI's lack of motivation in this area. They are way to busy playing catch up to established tech organizations like iantd or tdi and can't seem to make up their mind about certain aspects of the course..

 

[Scuba_Steve]

.....They are way to busy playing catch up to established tech organizations like iantd or tdi and can't seem to make up their mind about certain aspects of the course..

Bob, could you be more specific? Which areas are you refering to?

 

[Kim]

Bob, could you be more specific? Which areas are you refering to?

That's twice we had "certain aspects" referred to in this thread (padiscubapro also mentioned it in #post2).
I would also be very interested to know what exactly you guys are referring to. If there are important weaknesses that can effect this level of training I'd really rather hear about them before I do it - I only have one life!