DSAT Tech Deep Diver.

[ppo2_diver]

I chose this course because of the instructor, not because of the agency. During the Level 1 portion of the course, we did do simulated deco. But for the last 4 dives of the deep portion, we did go into deco. Our profile was 150 feet for 25 minutes. This was in very cold water, 39F!!! Our deco obligation was ~30 minutes, with a surface interval of 2 hours between dives for each day. We did deco with a 50% mix and 100% O2.

I really liked this course. I had alot of experience before I took it, but no experience with doubles and other tech equipment. So with the first 3 dives being pool dives, this really helped me out and lowered my anxiety for the real OW stuff.

 

[Scuba_Steve]

Honestly this program didn't get high grades here in Poland. Most of our technical divers are SDI, TDI or IANTD and all of them critisied DSAT.......
Mania

I'd pay $100.00 to any diver that ever thought the "other agency" had anything good to offer, if you get my drift. Agency bashing, one to another is a favorite thing to do for some.

I recall when I did my TDI (Adv Nitrox/Deco) course, we did mostly simulated deco. We did do a few mild deco dives after a few, but not 30min of required deco.

I know some people that want the course just to get a few more minutes of bottom time, and aren't into extremely boring, long hangs.

I'm on the fence about the issue of requiring excessive deco obligation for everyone on the course. To think you exit a course, with the ink still wet on the card, as a full-fledged hardend tech diver, after an Adv Nitrox/Deco course would be an incorrect assumption IMO. If it were, the course would be something like 6 months long with 50 dives!

Maybe it should be, be the reality is, you work up to these things, and the learning on the course is merely a beginning. At least it was for me. I've always seen these things as works in progress, and chance to learn the trade after obtaining the "right" to do it from an agency.

To me it's the long lasting knowledge and sound basic skills that the Instructor imparts on the student, that is most important. The rest can only come with time.

Regards

 

[padiscubapro]

I presume that you mean the TSD L3 Technical safe air? As far as I can see this is the only prerequisite to Trimix - is that right? (or the other L3 advanced courses) - it's also to 50 meters and as you pointed out the only other difference appears to be the number of stage/deco cylinders. That seems to put it at about the same level. I don't quite understand the ANDI standards page where it says - 3 tanks/3 gases (or something like that) - as presumably two of the tanks are back gas how can you use 3 gases?

after L3 TSD its ERD extended range, this is still 50m but allows unlimited deco and gear configurations..

# cylinders/3 gases means either a set of twins with one stage cylinder thats 3 cylinders two gases, or Independent twins plus a deco cylinder.. The independents don't necesarily have the exact same gas (hence two gases) plus the deco cylinder..

 

[padiscubapro]

I'd pay $100.00 to any diver that ever thought the "other agency" had anything good to offer, if you get my drift. Agency bashing, one to another is a favorite thing to do for some.

I recall when I did my TDI (Adv Nitrox/Deco) course, we did mostly simulated deco. We did do a few mild deco dives after a few, but not 30min of required deco.

I know some people that want the course just to get a few more minutes of bottom time, and aren't into extremely boring, long hangs.

I'm on the fence about the issue of requiring excessive deco obligation for everyone on the course. To think you exit a course, with the ink still wet on the card, as a full-fledged hardend tech diver, after an Adv Nitrox/Deco course would be an incorrect assumption IMO. If it were, the course would be something like 6 months long with 50 dives!

Maybe it should be, be the reality is, you work up to these things, and the learning on the course is merely a beginning. At least it was for me. I've always seen these things as works in progress, and chance to learn the trade after obtaining the "right" to do it from an agency.

To me it's the long lasting knowledge and sound basic skills that the Instructor imparts on the student, that is most important. The rest can only come with time.

Regards

I also don't believe in Agency bashing (I never discouraged Kim from taking the class).. Everyone has their good instructors, There may be POLICIES that I don't agree with and that I might talk about, or curriculum differences but I think its bad taste putting down a particular training just for the sake of it being another agency. There is only one agancy I for the most part strongly disagree with and thats because it doesn't support independent thought and modifications but not for its training regimen..


I don't consider 30 minutes of deco excessive (the earlier dives usually have 15 or 20 minutes of deco), I think its a reasonable limit for a new technical diver, on more advanced classes the deco gets pushed out..

My typical "graduation" dive in my trimix CCR class (in warm water) is a 100m dive for 30 minutes which requires about 3 HOURS of deco.. I don't expect this in my cold water classes! (although I do know of an IT who does these type dives in german mountain lakes... Brrrrr) I'm quite upfront with what I expect my students to do well before the fact.. ANDI's trimix certs have NO depth or deco limits on them, SO the few of us allowed to teach this program really test our students... You must earn it! We also have no such thing as a "normixic" instructor since normoxic or what ANDI calls Intermediate Trimix is not part of our normal training progression, its strictly there for people who cant get the depths required for our full trimix cert..

In fact one of my Trimix CCR students joined me on an expedition shortly after his Trimix CCR training and I had no problems with him joing the team for 125m+ dives, If I remember correctly by the end of the expedition he did about ~145m

Like I tried to stress earlier, alot of it is MENTAL training.. I remember the first time, I saw my computer tell me I had over 3 hours TTS (time to surface) even though I had tables in hand, It still had an effect... Then came 4,5,6 hours...

 

[Scuba_Steve]

I agree with your mental training concept entirely. I'm just not sure that your could ramp everybody up to 1 hr deco's plus, within the time frame of say, a TDI Adv Nitrox/Deco course, which doesn't have a lot of diving in it. I think it would very much be student/team dependant.

Of course I agree that 30mins of deco is not a lot, but personally, I really can't fathom 2 hrs either! At least not where we come from. I'd be dang frosty by then!

I'd just like to leave the door open for the ones that I know simply want extended bottom time, Deco diving within Recreational depth's, which really won't require much more than 30 min deco with a single deco gas, generally speaking.

Regards

 

[Otter]

Maybe I am missing something there....The difference between simulated and real deco is what? I always assumed that if I did a simulated deco at say 45' for 30 mins, I was at 45' for 30 mins. The fact that I didn't have a actual (real?) deco obligation only meant that (1) if I screwed up badly, I could ascent and (2) I didn't need to spend the bottomtime at depth to create the deco obligation.

Assuming all of that is true, and maybe it was alluded to above, is there a real [not simulated ]mental difference to a diver who has a simulated stop vs a real stop....

 

[Scuba_Steve]

I think you've got it down Simulated, Real, Mental preparedness for long deco.

I think it depends on the student divers actual knowledge at the time. I know when I did my first (Simulated) deco dive, I actually thought, in my ignorance, that I did have a "By the table" deco obligation. At least, that's how I remember it.

What it actually was, IIRC, was a moderately deep dive on gas "A" but used gas "B" to actually allow for no real deco to be done. I find that a lot of instructors do it that way simply for safety sake for the first few dives.

So as a student, if you don't yet know any better, you may believe you do have some sort of obligatory deco, and it gets you "In the game" without actually getting off the bench

If it works it works and if one is paying attention at all, they will soon find out that thier profile and gas combo was designed for student safety initially. I don't think I have any problem with that.

Something I find amusing is going back and looking at the profiles I used to run, and the absolute rediculous amount of deco I used to do, in the name of safety I guess.

It gives me a good guage on where my head was (or wasn't) at, at that point in time.

 

[Doc Intrepid]

Maybe I am missing something there....The difference between simulated and real deco is what? I always assumed that if I did a simulated deco at say 45' for 30 mins, I was at 45' for 30 mins. The fact that I didn't have a actual (real?) deco obligation only meant that (1) if I screwed up badly, I could ascent and (2) I didn't need to spend the bottomtime at depth to create the deco obligation.

Assuming all of that is true, and maybe it was alluded to above, is there a real [not simulated ]mental difference to a diver who has a simulated stop vs a real stop....

Otter,

Yes, IMHO, there is a real, not simulated, mental difference to a diver between a simulated vrs an actual deco obligation.

As others have noted, diving is often a very mentally-demanding activity - particularly when under tremendous stress. You're seeking to train yourself to perform under stress. You don't (adequately) do that, again, in my opinion, by only going through the motions absent any actual stress. You may initially begin with no actual stress, but before the course is out the student should be performing smoothly under real-world stress.

The difference between a simulated deco stop and a real deco requirement is precisely, as you put it, on a simulated dive "if I screwed up badly I could ascend".

And that makes all the difference in the world.

The student needs to actually be in and experience a situation where regardless of how badly the student screws the pooch, the student CAN NOT ascend. The student needs to think their way through their issues (with their instructor) and respond appropriately. If they cannot do this, they have no business being a student at that level.

That's why, IMHO, putting the student under real, versus simulated, mental stress is important in a quality technical training curriculum.

FWIW. YMMV.

 

[Otter]

Doc,
I accept there is a difference, but I really wonder how much it makes. Maybe its just me, but the stress of not wanting to 'fail' would be akin to 'not being able to ascend'..which I really could do (with probable dire consequences).

Just curious, in air-share drills or valve drills, are the OOA or equipment failures 'real'/created? Sucking down my last gulp of air at 180+ feet (or better yet, exhaling and then getting no breath) would certainly create some real stress.

 

[Doc Intrepid]

Doc,
I accept there is a difference, but I really wonder how much it makes. Maybe its just me, but the stress of not wanting to 'fail' would be akin to 'not being able to ascend'..which I really could do (with probable dire consequences).

Just curious, in air-share drills or valve drills, are the OOA or equipment failures 'real'/created? Sucking down my last gulp of air at 180+ feet (or better yet, exhaling and then getting no breath) would certainly create some real stress.

There is a difference between 'skills' and 'environment'.

Theoretically you could perform nearly every skill presented in a typical NACD Cavern and Intro to Cave course in open water. Reel tie-offs and line handling, pull and glide, light communications, staging bottles, and most of the rest of it including lost diver drills, lost line drills, and zero-visibility exits - all could be simulated in an open water environment. Would you consider a student who has gone through such a course a qualified Intro to Cave diver?

It is the environment of being inside the cave itself, or at least it was for me, that added an entirely different level of awareness. It will definitely get your attention.

Certainly skills are simulated. Valve drills - the valve is shut down, but could easily be opened should something go wrong. OOA - yes there is gas available. (generally! )

The point is that if a student is learning to perform decompression diving, the student should perform their skills within a decompression environment - as the cave student should perform their skills inside a cave.

Simulating decompression environments makes about as much sense as simulating a cave. It is certainly possible to perform the necessary skills for either and never enter either environment.

Would you consider a student who did either a fully qualified diver?

As in all things, YMMV.