Drop your weights or not...

[--tom--]

Okay, that you have the option of dropping the weights for ascent is still covered in the PADI OW course. I find many instructors and most students just blow by the material. It was covered under the what the priority of ascents (on the final) were: 1) Normal 2) Alternate Air 3) CESA 4) Buddy Breathing and 5) Buoyant Ascent. There is a segment in the video which demonstrates how to drop the weights and flair to slow the ascent. For obvious reasons, the buoyant ascent is not practiced in the pool. There is my rant on instruction.

Regarding dropping weights in emergency, part of the decision and training should be slanted toward the locale of the dive. I have done quite a few dives right around where these students died and during that day with 5-10' (2-3m) of visibility the local rule holds: If you don't surface we can't save you. If you come to the surface hurt, your chances are good, the Monterey hospital has been taking care of divers for a very long time.

Because these conditions are not unusual, I teach students in weight integrated BCDs & a weight belt. The rule of thirds in a different application. I cover the reasons behind it. If something is going wrong, dump SOME of your weight. You don't have to dump it all on the first shot, but if you are out of air, don't be afraid of hedging the bet. I emphasize over again and again: weights are a disposable item. I have a standing offer to my students, if in doubt, dump the weight--I will personally buy you new weights.

I am not sure if I would be quite emphatic on less demanding dive locations, but that isn't where my students primarily dive, so I emphasize what I think works here.

 

[BrianKon]

For every skill you take a student through for certification there is an objective and value for it. Discussing these and the scenarios is part of the instruction. Since weight removal is one of easier skills, perhaps not enough time is spent on it and hence the confusion with certified divers; who did the skill for certification, but never really understood the skill.

I think I will bring this up with my referral students tomorrow during OW 3 & 4, to test their knowledge.

Ok so this morning before OW 3&4 I asked my referrals student about weights, when and why to drop them. They either answered why or when, but had trouble putting them together. After some discussion before the dives, during the surface interval and after the dives, I can assure everyone they know now.

thanks Scubaboard!!! I may not have gone over this to make sure they had a thorough understanding of this concept even though they performed the skill to satisfaction the day before.

Brian

 

[Ripple in still water]

There seems to be an assumption that OOA divers always have some air in their lungs. What if you realize you are OOA right at the end of a good, deep exhalation at 100 feet (with no buddy around). A CESA is effectively impossible. If you ascend at 30 feet per minute, you might pass out before you get to a depth at which you could get a meaningful breath out of your tank. Under those circumstances, if you ditch your weights, you probably won't suffer an air embolism even if you pass out on your way up because there is a negligible amount of air in your lungs to expand, and you will reach the surface even if you lose consciousness.

[Obviously the foregoing shouldn't be permitted to occur in the first place, but we are asking "what if."]

 

[xyrandomyx]

First, a question: if you pass out from lack of air, will your airway stay open? I think someone in this thread asserted that you would, but can anyone confirm that? I was wondering if you passed out, dropped your reg and swallowed some water whether your body would not react with some sort of spasm that might inhibit exhaling (at least partly).

Then, what I was taught: at the surface, drop weights at the first sign of not being able to stay afloat. Underwater, only drop weights if you can't/ don't think you'll be able to make it to the surface without doing so. In my mind, dropping weights underwater was something of a 'last resort'. This thread makes me think that I should adjust my thinking to be more willing to drop weights.

 

[DandyDon]

First, a question: if you pass out from lack of air, will your airway stay open? I think someone in this thread asserted that you would, but can anyone confirm that? I was wondering if you passed out, dropped your reg and swallowed some water whether your body would not react with some sort of spasm that might inhibit exhaling (at least partly).

There are some mixed opinions on that, perhaps deserving of a separate thread - maybe in Dive Medicine. There is a risk of Laryngospasm but passed out - it would still be best to drown and/or embolized (word?) on the surface if at all. I saw a diver plucked from the water unconscious and embolized once. Scary. He was from our boat but we could not get to him downcurrent at the time but another grabbed him and sped him to shore for a waiting ambulance. We had a lunch break and an afternoon trip scheduled and I wondered if any of us would go, if I would, since we kinda thot he was a gonner - but by the time to board, we heard he was arguing with the hospital on whether he had to spend the night or not. Of course he did as Dry drowning and other risks were still in play.

Then, what I was taught: at the surface, drop weights at the first sign of not being able to stay afloat. Underwater, only drop weights if you can't/ don't think you'll be able to make it to the surface without doing so. In my mind, dropping weights underwater was something of a 'last resort'. This thread makes me think that I should adjust my thinking to be more willing to drop weights.

I'm still on last resort, but it was finally suggested in the Accident thread that spawned this one to remove weights and hold them on an emergency ascent, in case you passed out - then you would ascend. Better idea.

 

[jmasin]

I'm still on last resort, but it was finally suggested in the Accident thread that spawned this one to remove weights and hold them on an emergency ascent, in case you passed out - then you would ascend. Better idea.

Seems like a good idea... And agreed passed out at the surface has a higher probability of survival than passed out below... but you're still in deep _____....

Quick disclaimer: I'm still learning, and a lot of this is easy to SAY but may be harder to do if I find myself in the situation.


It's a judgment call right? If I judge I won't make it to the surface, the weights are going. But I will first attempt to make it to the surface.

If I'm neutrally buoyant, my BC is empty, my lungs are empty (or more accurately I just exhaled), and I'm suddenly and unexpectedly OOA at 100ft, and my buddy abandoned me and is 50 yds away, well then sh*t yes weights are going and then I pray because there won't be any way I can do a 100ft swim to the surface on empty lungs.

Of course, if I find myself in that situation to begin with I've already screwed myself over so hard that survival would be a bonus at that point...

This is the part that's easy for me to say while sitting here relaxed in the office - I do believe in any emergency there is significantly more time to evaluate and assess then we think. We as a race tend to panic in emergencies, which is good when running from a lion on the plains, but not so good when underwater. Take the 5 seconds to evaluate whether you are sinking uncontrolled, your current depth, your current situation etc.

One could argue 5 seconds wasted is a bad thing, but IMHO 5 seconds leading to a good decision is better than a bad decision immediately when you probably only have time for one decision.


This is where training comes in. The mind is incredibly adaptable, especially with respect to the passage of time. When I first started tracking my car things seemed to happen so fast there was no time to execute all the things I had to do. Then over time, I had more and more time to do the things I needed. The stopwatch said the same time (less, I was actually going faster), but things seemed to happen slower and more relaxed. My mind had adapted.

I haven't taken rescue yet, I plan it this year, and hopefully this is an aspect that the class works on.

 

[Dhboner]

If you experience an out of air at depth on your last exhale, and for whatever reason your buddy isn't within reach, (shame on you) keep the regulator in your mouth. As you ascend you may be able to get a breath or two off the tank as the small amount of air expands in the tank.

I dive with my sons and we regulary practice scenarios. Usually I will warn them at the start of the dive that at some point in the dive I will have and "emergency". It's only simulated but it does keep everyone sharp.

Last weekend one of my sons had a bad freeflow and couldn't reach his left post...thanks to our practice in past dives, he calmly swam over to me and signalled for me to shut the valve down. It really does pay to "act out" a few situations in open water just to stay on top of your training.

 

[DandyDon]

If I'm neutrally buoyant, my BC is empty, my lungs are empty (or more accurately I just exhaled), and I'm suddenly and unexpectedly OOA at 100ft, and my buddy abandoned me and is 50 yds away, well then sh*t yes weights are going and then I pray because there won't be any way I can do a 100ft swim to the surface on empty lungs.

Well, I won't go to 100 ft without my pony normally; if I did, I would be right on my bud's butt wherever he went. My home bud is not so diligent about such but he has not screwed up like I have, or had the boat pick buds I have. All of his trips were with me and I try to watch him even tho he doesn't try much.

I did screw up a couple years ago and went virtually OOA at 50 ft wo-pony. Even in such a rare indecent, you generally get a hard breath of air that it your first clue to start the Think, etc. actions so you are not likely to be empty lunged. Indeed I did exhale on my Cesa to about 20 ft but ran out then as I was doing a slow enough ascent; hehe, you'd think you'd be freaking and hitting the surface faster huh? So I stopped ascending, took another breath, then started ascending with exhaling again. Had enough new air on the surface to inflate and even blow my inline whistle. I got myself back on the boat before beating myself up for being so stupid - survival first & foremost.

Now you can learn more from me on how not to dive maybe, but do not allow yourself to be 100 ft down and 50 yards from your backup air. Dive with a pony, a good buddy, and/or stay on his butt - and check his spg personally often.

If you experience an out of air at depth on your last exhale, and for whatever reason your buddy isn't within reach, (shame on you) keep the regulator in your mouth. As you ascend you may be able to get a breath or two off the tank as the small amount of air expands in the tank.

Yep, the one thing I did right maybe - that saved my ass.

 

[bleeb]

There seems to be an assumption that OOA divers always have some air in their lungs. What if you realize you are OOA right at the end of a good, deep exhalation at 100 feet (with no buddy around). A CESA is effectively impossible. If you ascend at 30 feet per minute, you might pass out before you get to a depth at which you could get a meaningful breath out of your tank. Under those circumstances, if you ditch your weights, you probably won't suffer an air embolism even if you pass out on your way up because there is a negligible amount of air in your lungs to expand, and you will reach the surface even if you lose consciousness.

There's a dangerous mistatements here that I think needs correcting. The amount of gas in empty lungs is NEVER negligible. You only breathe with part of your lungs. In the average adult, regular surface breathing only moves 0.5-1 L in and out. (For the non-metrically inclined, that's roughly 1-2 pints.) There are about another 3 L that you don't normally make use of on the surface (including both a 'forced inhale' and 'forced exhale' portion). Some but not all of that is used by divers well practiced in breathing 'deeply'. Below all that, there's always at least about 1 L of volume left that you can't breathe out. So even if you've fully and forceably exhaled at depth, there's still lots of air in your lungs and you could easily embolise if you don't vent on the way up.

On another separate note, even if they've been working hard, most reasonably healthy people have at least a minute or two of oxygen in their blood stream, particularly if they don't keep being frantically active. So while a slow ascent might be difficult for many, probably the vast majority of reasonably healthy divers at least have the capacity to CESA from 100' after a full exhalation. Maybe they need practice to do it comfortably, but a real emergency tends to be quite motivating. The overall message is that even if you're really and completely out of gas, it's still better not to panic because, even then, there are options that have a decent chance of getting you out in one piece and kicking.

 

[bleeb]

First, a question: if you pass out from lack of air, will your airway stay open? I think someone in this thread asserted that you would, but can anyone confirm that? I was wondering if you passed out, dropped your reg and swallowed some water whether your body would not react with some sort of spasm that might inhibit exhaling (at least partly).

There are some mixed opinions on that, perhaps deserving of a separate thread - maybe in Dive Medicine. There is a risk of Laryngospasm but passed out - it would still be best to drown and/or embolized (word?) on the surface if at all.

Will the airway stay open? Maybe, maybe not. A common issue, especially above water without buoyancy to hold your head up, is the latter flopping forward which will tend to bend the wind pipe closed. Remember the head tilt in CPR rescue breathing to open the airway? In rescuing an unconscious diver, I was taught that you keep a hand on the regulator or chin (if not reg) and tilt the head up to prevent the victim from embolizing. So the literal answer to the question of whether the airway will definitely stay open is 'no' and it may even be likely to close unless a rescuer specifically takes action to keep it open.