Donating the "primary" regulator

[Arus]

ok, let's understand each other.
me personally, i think the best solution is to provide what the OOAD is looking for, as fast as possible... and then keeping it at a decent distance for control.
2 regs, long hose for the one we donate. good.
the rescue course teached us that the rule is to help someone only if we are not putting ourself at danger, right?
so, keeping this in mind, my colleague pointed out that makes no sense to donate our primary instead of having the long hose on the alternative and donate that one. for him is "if they pull your reg out, you failed. you should be able to push them away and provide the alternative... protect yourself first... i'm not taking out my own reg for your sake".
i replied that we donate the primary because we cannot control everything...
so, if we notice the situation and it's more or less under control... donating the primary is not such a big deal. you donate, switch to a well maintained alternative one and that's it.
if we didn't notice and we got attacked suddenly having the reg pulled out, still we can switch to an alternative source that is right under our chin. and not being the ones on panic, is still quite a controlled situation.

about legal consequences.. is not what we are discussing here. is not even possible to discuss it due to the different laws in the world. it's anyway a borderline situation.

KenGordon can you explain better what you mean? what should we consider in you opinion?

 

[boulderjohn]

for him is "if they pull your reg out, you failed. you should be able to push them away and provide the alternative... protect yourself first... i'm not taking out my own reg for your sake".

That assumes your are big enough and strong enough to hold off a panicked diver who is desperate for that regulator.

The last thing I want to do in an OOA situation is get in a fight with a panicked, OOA diver. Maybe that's someone else's idea of a good time, but it isn't mine.

 

[mdb]

That assumes your are big enough and strong enough to hold off a panicked diver who is desperate for that regulator.

The last thing I want to do in an OOA situation is get in a fight with a panicked, OOA diver. Maybe that's someone else's idea of a good time, but it isn't mine.

Been in three OOA situations over 40+ years of diving.

In every case the OOA diver went straight for my primary.

I gave it up and went to my octo-using a Poseidon second stage-no wrong way to put in your mouth.

Once the OOA diver had a few deep inhales it was time for a fairly controlled ascent.

It all worked out and I learned from it.

My first OOA experience was with a "buddy".

We had practiced buddy breathing at the end of every dive for almost a year.

When he ran out of air, chasing some abalone, all the practice went away.

He just wanted air-NOW. He got it.

I am no instructor, nor expert. It does seem that donating (giving up) the primary should be
part of training.

 

[KenGordon]

ok, let's understand each other.
me personally, i think the best solution is to provide what the OOAD is looking for, as fast as possible... and then keeping it at a decent distance for control.
2 regs, long hose for the one we donate. good.
the rescue course teached us that the rule is to help someone only if we are not putting ourself at danger, right?
so, keeping this in mind, my colleague pointed out that makes no sense to donate our primary instead of having the long hose on the alternative and donate that one. for him is "if they pull your reg out, you failed. you should be able to push them away and provide the alternative... protect yourself first... i'm not taking out my own reg for your sake".
i replied that we donate the primary because we cannot control everything...
so, if we notice the situation and it's more or less under control... donating the primary is not such a big deal. you donate, switch to a well maintained alternative one and that's it.
if we didn't notice and we got attacked suddenly having the reg pulled out, still we can switch to an alternative source that is right under our chin. and not being the ones on panic, is still quite a controlled situation.

about legal consequences.. is not what we are discussing here. is not even possible to discuss it due to the different laws in the world. it's anyway a borderline situation.

KenGordon can you explain better what you mean? what should we consider in you opinion?

Your post is made from the point of view of a diver not out of gas giving gas to a diver who needs gas. You are putting yourself in the position of the saviour in the story. That is how these threads go. Nobody really pops up and says "if I am the OOG diver I do not want to have to wait for someone to notice my signal and donate. They could be a photographer, they could have the long hose under their drysuit inflate, they could think I might drown them, they might not have done an S drill in a year.... I just want gas, I don't want you involved. I am an adult, I can tell a stage from an octopus." Etc.

Try thinking like a victim.

 

[Patoux01]

Try thinking like a victim.

Since many stories tell us that the victim goes berzerk, it's hard thinking like them. I can not realistically say what I will do in that situation.

 

[Carl_F]

Are you saying that when a diver goes OOA in a real-life situation, it will happen while the diver is chest to chest with his or her buddy? it won't happen while they are in a swimming position and some distance apart?

No. I'm saying they will swim to each other, share air and then ascend using a contact ascent.

 

[Carl_F]

I don't believe I have ever seen anyone sign a statement before a dive stipulating their duties as a buddy. Those duties are largely understood as a result of decades of practice. I have taught many hundreds of OW students, and all those classes have taught that buddies share air, and students are required to practice doing that in buddy teams many times during the class. That is a pretty strong suggestion that being a buddy includes sharing air when it is needed.
...
I'm pretty confident that if you refused to donate air to an OOA diver who died as a result, you would have some pretty unpleasant consequences afterward.

I agree ... a buddy that chooses to not share air in an OOA scenario could very well be liable in either civil or criminal proceedings if injury or death occurred as a result. However, a good faith attempt at air sharing that was then unsuccessful for some reason would likely mitigate that. I suspect for the most part it would have to be pretty obvious ... OOA buddy swimming toward the donor and then the donor turning and swimming away.

 

[tbeck3579]

But it could be argued that bouyancy should be taught to brand-new OW divers from the start. Obviously, a diver that is comfortable without touching any solid surface is going to be a much safer diver than one who isn't, so in my opinion bouyancy control should be THE primary skill, as such a diver will be less of a danger to himself and others and will be much more equipped to help others in an emergency.

It is supposed to be taught from the beginning. I was concerned about what I should be learning after completing the online PADI so I looked for information. This is what you should learn in your OW:

 

[Bob DBF]

Are you saying that when a diver goes OOA in a real-life situation, it will happen while the diver is chest to chest with his or her buddy? it won't happen while they are in a swimming position and some distance apart?

Well if the OOG diver is some distance away on your long hose and decides to head for the surface in panic, you have absolutely no control of the situation any more. There is a calming effect on a diver close to panic being eye to eye with a calm in control diver, seen it work. The problem is that you assume it is your buddy that is OOA and well trained, when it is not your buddy, it can get way more exciting.


Bob

 

[boulderjohn]

Well if the OOG diver is some distance away on your long hose and decides to head for the surface in panic, you have absolutely no control of the situation any more.

First of all, the long hose gives you options. You can do what you want--hang onto the diver while staring meaningfully into his or her eyes or head out through a hole in the wreck single file.

Second, we are not specifying the length of the long hose. In recreational diving, I prefer to use the same 7 foot hose I use in tech diving because I am frequently in confined spaces within a wreck. Some people prefer 5-foot hoses. Others use 40" hoses that route under the right arm and have a swivel connection at the regulator.