Do you dive solo?

[Storker]

There are two types of people regarding this solo vs buddy diving. [...] unfortunately the group hug bunch feel violated when a lone wolf does not wag his/her tail and roll over for some belly rubs and feel the need to correct the behavior

Y'know, it's a long time since I've seen a better example of straw man argumentation than this.

 

[Dr. Lecter]

Don't forget Point Lobos in Monterey Co.
Believe it or not I've never dove there because I never was able to line up a reservation with the right buddies with the right weekend off, etc.
In other words the sun, moon, and stars weren't lined up just right so it never happened.
But, I have heard that there is a park ranger there that has taken it upon himself to be the dive police/nazi of PL.
The rules are that there must be at least two divers entering the water at the same time, no solo diving. You cannot make a reservation to dive there solo either. The last time I checked (and it's been quite a few years) you had to have at least three divers in your group to make a reservation.
If he sees a diver pop up without a buddy they get the riot act read to them.
However, being a state park I am surprised at this micro managing about solo diving.
Come to think of it, maybe that's also why I don't dive there.

Unlike Laguna Beach which is owned and patrolled by the City of Laguna Beach which has had a written ordinace on the books in place against diving solo and mandatory snorkel since 1962.

It's still a bit amazing to me that nobody has sued either the state or the city based on regulations like that. It's usually safer from a liability standpoint to not proscribe how one must or must not engage in a given activity, because the moment you do and either a buddy fails to aid a diver or someone drowns and there's an argument to be made that the snorkel caused confusion that would have otherwise not occurred…it gets messy.

 

[drrich2]

I'm going to come at Nemrod's idea about different personalities in diving from a different angle.

Arguments over whether 'standard' buddy diving vs. properly trained & responsible solo diving is statistically safer, given that either is relatively low risk, miss the point.

Scuba diving has some inherent risk no matter how well and responsibly it is done, yet at the recreational level diving is unnecessary. So the very fact I choose to dive testifies to the fact I'm willing to take on some risk to do something I want to do.

Likewise, as long as solo diving is safe enough, I don't really care that buddy diving might be safer. Let's say my odds of death or serious injury on a dive I want to do solo are 1 in 100,000, and taking a buddy would drive that down to 1 in 300,000, using wild guess numbers to make a point. That's not going to change how I dive.

I think I dive responsibly and safely enough. Not the most anally and lowest risk possible.

How about an example. I've enjoyed in a number of threads TS&M discussing the GUE DIR system, her dedication to pre-dive gear checks for self & buddy, well-trained fine buddies she dives with in her region, the 'non-aquarium' conditions of Puget Sound, and the dedication and commitment to the sport she brings to her dives and dedication to planning and 'diving the plan' her buddy teams may display. I have no doubt she dives safer in more adverse conditions and that her diving approach is by any objective 3rd party observer 'better' than mine, and she obviously enjoys her diving.

Yet I'm not signed up for GUE Fundamentals or likely to embrace DIR diving. I enjoy buddy diving with a good friend of mine, but I also enjoy solo diving. I have no intention of cold water diving in Puget Sound any time soon, if ever (might be tempted to do guided diving there if I were in the area). This is not because I think my way is safer, more philosophically sound, more skillful or better informed, none of that.

It's because I'm me. An adult only child eccentric introvert who grew up somewhat isolated and learned to appreciate solitude. Not a team sports type. Not a 'people person.'

Many solo divers will choose solo for reasons much different from mine. My point in all this is that the decision to go solo is often not down to whether buddy diving or solo diving is safer. As long as both are safe enough.

Richard.

 

[Lopez116]

It's still a bit amazing to me that nobody has sued either the state or the city based on regulations like that. It's usually safer from a liability standpoint to not proscribe how one must or must not engage in a given activity, because the moment you do and either a buddy fails to aid a diver or someone drowns and there's an argument to be made that the snorkel caused confusion that would have otherwise not occurred…it gets messy.

Won't be successful. In CA, the government enjoys discretionary immunity on precisely these type of issues.


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[Dr. Lecter]

Won't be successful. In CA, the government enjoys discretionary immunity on precisely these type of issues.


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Anything to which you can point me? CA Tort Claims Act isn't my area of expertise, but discretionary acts exemptions generally don't apply to enactment of rules/regulations. Still, the fact that they haven't been sued on that theory after such a length of time definitely suggests you're correct.

 

[Lopez116]

Anything to which you can point me? CA Tort Claims Act isn't my area of expertise, but discretionary acts exemptions generally don't apply to enactment of rules/regulations. Still, the fact that they haven't been sued on that theory after such a length of time definitely suggests you're correct.

Discretionary immunity probably isn't the right term. I was thinking of this: Govt Code 818.2. A public entity is not liable for an injury caused by adopting or failing to adopt an enactment or by failing to enforce any law.

Aside from the immunity issue, my other concern is that PADI and other agencies essentially have created the standard of care to be "carry a snorkel" and "dive with a buddy."

I think we're seeing a softening of the "dive with a buddy" maxim, but we aren't there yet. While SDI has a solo diver cert, PADI hasn't gone that far and only has a "self-reliant diver" cert.

What are your thoughts re the standard of care aspect?


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[Eric Sedletzky]

I often wondered to what lengths the beach patrol at Laguna would go to keep a diver from either diving solo or not having a snorkel?
So in other words, if you marched across the beach alone and the lifeguard asked "Where's your Buddy and your snorke?" and you ignored them in protest and continued on into the water, donned your fins and took off, what would they do?
How do they plan to enforce this?
Do they physically stop you?
Or do they wait for you to get out of the water and issue you a ticket. What if you blatantly refuse to give them any ID or don't have any with you. What if you exit the next cove over to avoid the lifeguards. Has anybody ever challenged these laws in protest just to see what would happen. What if fifty divers marched accross the beach all at the same time with no snorkels and loudly proclaimed that they are going in the water to solo dive, what would they do, how would they contain it. I'm curious to know how far they are willing to escalate a no buddy or no snorkel infraction.
Would they get the city police involved or maybe county sheriff, how much are they willing to spend in personnel response to enforce their laws? I'd love to see the faces on the cops when they get a call of a beligerant uncooperative diver.
Is all this just a lot of hot air, and are they hoping that nobody challenges their arbitrary laws.

 

[Dr. Lecter]

Discretionary immunity probably isn't the right term. I was thinking of this: Govt Code 818.2. A public entity is not liable for an injury caused by adopting or failing to adopt an enactment or by failing to enforce any law.

Aside from the immunity issue, my other concern is that PADI and other agencies essentially have created the standard of care to be "carry a snorkel" and "dive with a buddy."

I think we're seeing a softening of the "dive with a buddy" maxim, but we aren't there yet. While SDI has a solo diver cert, PADI hasn't gone that far and only has a "self-reliant diver" cert.

What are your thoughts re the standard of care aspect?


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I think the idea that any agency's standards would qualify as an industry standard is far fetched. The argument that diving sans snorkel and/or buddy is per se negligent would be a loser (I hope)--there are lots of reasons a "reasonable" diver would opt for the solo/no snorkel approach.

That said, it sounds like divers hitting those CA sites can either have a buddy and a snorkel or they can take the Heinlein approach--[FONT=georgia, serif]“I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.”--and pay whatever tin badge bureaucrat's fine they cannot evade.
[/FONT]
Now back on topic

 

[randytay]

I also do not fit into the profile. I teach the way I dive and dive the way I teach. What kind of instructors tell their students to dive with a buddy and then proceed to dive alone?

 

[gypsyjim]

I also do not fit into the profile. I teach the way I dive and dive the way I teach. What kind of instructors tell their students to dive with a buddy and then proceed to dive alone?

Most?