Do we need instructors?

[captain]

I should have bolded this in my original post.



In light of the original poster's question:


First let me say that I'm a big fan of mentoring. The only issue I see is that in some cases, the mentor may very well be a master of what they have learned and a good teacher. However, if the teacher/mentor was never exposed to some aspects, how would the be able to pass them along?

We are living is a wonderful time where information is readily available but experience may not so easily gained.

The "should" be a problem in my post was in error, it should have been shouldn't be a problem and I caught the error and corrected it.

 

[Teamcasa]

The "should" be a problem in my post was in error, it should have been shouldn't be a problem and I caught the error and corrected it.

I edited my response accordingly.

 

[Thalassamania]

Can you help out with a few examples of advancements in gear and teaching techniques fall into that category?

I am not trying to be dense, just to understand what you are driving at, I still have no idea of what advancements in gear and teaching techniques that fall into that category. Like Captain, somehow, many of us made the transition from double hose to single hose; from j-valve to SPG; from Buddy Breathing to Auxiliary; from wet suit to dry suit; from table to computer; from no BC to Mae West to Horsecollar to BC to BP/w; etc.; so what's the big deal?

 

[MSilvia]

If you didn't have to worry about the legal aspects of teaching someone else to scuba dive would you do it?

Yes, absolutely, and I'm confidant that the people I trained would become capable divers who would be well qualified to dive (with a buddy) without supervision.

 

[Teamcasa]

I am not trying to be dense, just to understand what you are driving at, I still have no idea of what advancements in gear and teaching techniques that fall into that category. Like Captain, somehow, many of us made the transition from double hose to single hose; from j-valve to SPG; from Buddy Breathing to Auxiliary; from wet suit to dry suit; from table to computer; from no BC to Mae West to Horsecollar to BC to BP/w; etc.; so what's the big deal?

Having made the same transition I know what you are getting at but one example would be, cave diving techniques. Training for safer diving in caves is evolving almost daily.

For Example: If a mentor, say living in Mexico, mentors cave divers on the techniques and gear commonly used there, they may not get exposed to some new ideas currently being used in Dordogne.

Sooner or later all of the information gets disseminated but in the mean time, someone is getting trained without full knowledge of better techniques.

 

[MSilvia]

There are a several problems with the mentoring approach:

(1) While there are enthusiastic divers who want to teach that enthusiasm generally fades after a period of time, especially if they are doing it gratis.

(2) There are loads of newish divers with 30 to 50 dives who think they know much more about diving that they do, and they will become the instructors causing a downward spiral.

(3) Who is going to set the standards with this approach? Many of the arguments on this board are about standard or the lack thereof.

(4) Many if not a large majority of the potential students out there want to get in, and get out, at minimum cost. You can bemoan the lack of skill that results, but the commercial agencies are filling the demand that is there. And the bodies do not seem to be stacking up.

1) If you want to mentor, mentor. If you get tired of it, stop. I don't see how this is any different from being a professional instructor, except in that pros often get to do fewer "for fun" dives than non-instructors, which could arguably lead to them getting burned out sooner than mentors.
2) Again, this is different from the current instructor model how?
3) If I were going to mentor non-divers in the OP's non-litigious environment, I'd set my own standards. That they may be inconsistent with the standards set by others is not something I would lose sleep over.
4) I wouldn't train people who were looking for that kind of instruction.

Mentoring is a good method of teaching but the problem is that a single mentor may not have access to all of the new information available, current advancements in gear or new teaching techniques.

If (for the sake of argument) I taught someone to dive safely using the techniques that allowed me to dive safely 15 years ago, what's the harm?

I see three goals in certification:

1. Trust between divers: as a diver, you should be able to trust the certification and do a first dive with a new buddy being confident he can handle himself.
2. Operation planning: a boat operator or an instructor needs to know what level of service a diver will need. Experienced divers are happy with a spot on a bench, beginners may require a very detailed briefing, assistance with gear, getting in and out of the boat and sometimes a guide. Certification in its current state seems to help there (?). This benefits all divers, not only the operator, as a couple divers monopolizing all the crew degrade the service for everyone else.
3. Operator moral (if not legal) responsibility: it's not fun to hand someone gear or gas and see the accident report the day after. To some extent, this is protecting the diver from himself, but although it makes me cringe I can understand that a shop prefers to have a 'no card no gas' policy than taking the time to assess unknown customers.

1) I believe you should also be equipped to evaluate the competence of a potential buddy, and to make a judgment on his or her suitability as a buddy without seeing their card. Based on my personal experience, a C-card isn't much of a guarantee that a diver has a clue what they're doing anyhow.
2) See #1, and if you want to know if someone needs help, asking is a time-honored method.
3) Current social mores aside, I don't believe it's the operator's responsibility, but that of the person asking for the fill. I believe the operator's responsibility is to ensure that the gas is delivered safely and as advertised. What is done with it when it leaves the shop is up to (and therefore should be the responsibility of) the buyer.

In light of the original poster's question:
First let me say that I'm a big fan of mentoring. The only issue I see is that in some cases, the mentor may very well be a master of what they have learned and a good teacher. However, if the teacher/mentor was never exposed to some aspects, how would the be able to pass them along?

They wouldn't, just like instructors today. You can only teach what you know (or, God forbid, what you have a cheat sheet for).

 

[Teamcasa]

If (for the sake of argument) I taught someone to dive safely using the techniques that allowed me to dive safely 15 years ago, what's the harm?...

They wouldn't, just like instructors today. You can only teach what you know (or, God forbid, what you have a cheat sheet for).

There is no harm and I was not trying to think there was. I was just pointing out (based on the OP's question) that without a network of instructors to share techniques and training advancements, the mentor/student may not be getting the most up-to-date training available.

My real point is that PADI/NAUI (et al) do provide a centralized repository of training ideas, methods and improvements in gear along with a method to keep everyone up to speed. I'm not suggesting they do it perfectly but it is an advantage.

 

[gcbryan]

There is no harm and I was not trying to think there was. I was just pointing out (based on the OP's question) that without a network of instructors to share techniques and training advancements, the mentor/student may not be getting the most up-to-date training available.

My real point is that PADI/NAUI (et al) do provide a centralized repository of training ideas, methods and improvements in gear along with a method to keep everyone up to speed. I'm not suggesting they do it perfectly but it is an advantage.

I think it can also be a disadvantage. Organizations, in general, are adverse to change and therefore react slowly...vodoo gas, ascent rates and deep stops being the obvious examples.

 

[captain]

I think it can also be a disadvantage. Organizations, in general, are adverse to change and therefore react slowly...vodoo gas, ascent rates and deep stops being the obvious examples.

Exactly, the mentor could be a diver who is trimix and deco trained, how many instructor are.

 

[leapfrog]

I think most of the agency produced books are rather poor when compared with books that have been produced outside of the agencies ranging from New Science to the NOAA and Navy Manuals.

True but we are supposed to be demilitarizing dive training (not sure why but that's what it says in the agency produced books)

I think we need both, and I disagree that parents would slow off critical items like that the way many instructors have been know to.

Thal, you are speaking as a father. Unfortunately most fathers aren't like you any more. They give in over and over again to adolescent tyranny.