Do instructors not like to sell BP/W?

[Colliam7]

I certified four students yesterday, and all were wearing a Halcyon plate and wing.

Cool. Were these BPs that the students had purchased, or ones that you / the shop made available? Did they start out with them in Confined Water, or did they switch when they did their checkouts?

I REALLY MISS being able to carry the tables and a slate with my BP/W. Yes, I know there are pockets for the web belt but they collide with the weight harness. Yes, I know I can add pockets to my wetsuit but I haven't gotten there yet.

Take the plunge, buy some pockets, have someone like Mark Owens at Superior Diving in MN put them on for you properly (glue and stitch), and your only regret will be having waited so long to do it. They are fantastic. The pockets on my wetsuit thighs are much easier to get to and use (no zipper, just velcro; bigger, etc) than the ones on my jacket BC.

 

[Bonairetrip]

I have owned all three major set ups (the old backpack + horse collar; BP/W; and jacket). I have had softpack and hardpack style jacket BCs. Three observations:

a) All three work. None are inherently unsafe (excluding the old C02 carts). They all have some things they do better/worse than the others.
b) Most instructors dive what the shop sells. Most shops rent (and use for classes) what the shop sells. Most students tend to buy the gear they are most familiar with (what they rented, what they used in class, what the instructor used). Some gear manufacturers require shops to carry all/most of their product line rather than just picking and choosing.
c) While the opposite is in fact true, BP/W seem complicated. You have plate choices. Wing choices. Harness choices. Cam Band Choices. Shoulder pads? Back pads? Pockets? How do I put stuff together? Do I need a STA or not? Do I need sex bolts? What brands are good? (That is one reason I like Tobin at DSS -- his web site and emails make it very easy and clear)

I now use a BP/W setup. It was a local shop owner that first started me thinking that way (there are both Halcyon and Oxycheq dealers within a short drive). Simple is good.

 

[Bob]

Cool. Were these BPs that the students had purchased, or ones that you / the shop made available? Did they start out with them in Confined Water, or did they switch when they did their checkouts?

I start them in confined water with the plate and wing, which we (the shop) furnishes to each student for training. We also have rental BP/W's for those who desire to continue diving a plate and wing after certification. almtree: Bob

 

[leapfrog]

I would be very interested in how many instructors on SB regularly put students in a BP starting with confined water, or even starting with the OW checkouts, and what your experience has been.

I worked at a PADI 5 * IDC Center last year that also is one of the major TDI Instructor Trainer facilities over here. So there was plenty of "tech(yes, I know BP/W isn't just for tech) equipment" on display in clear view of the customers. Quite a few instructors there are TDI instructors and were doing both rec courses and tech courses. At no time did it occur to anybody there to sell a BP/W to a recreational level diver, except to one customer, built like Justin Bannan, who used doubles to just go on a regular recreational dives. Talk about SAC...

I would not contemplate putting my students on a BP/W for the following reasons:

1. I want them to train on the gear that they are going to find for rent with me or any other place they go diving. Worldwide.
2. I don't believe in rushing or cajoling students into buying equipment (except mask, fins, snorkel and booties); I would rather they spent the money on diving and training and made up their own minds about equipment choices. I also am a believer in divers buying their equipment one piece at a time and real slow with an informed opinion after having spoken to other divers and spent some time on Scubaboard.
3. Buoyancy, IMHO, is not just about attaining perfect horizontal trim. In fact I like students to get buoyant in any position.
4. I have a "surface safety issue" with BCDs and BP/Ws. Yes, this is a pet peeve but I take it very seriously. It's not just about the diver knowing how to handle his BP/W on the surface to not go smack face down but about other divers knowing to handle a BP/W in case of an emergency.

OTOH, I think BP/W could and should be introduced as an adventure dive (AOW) and a specialty, just the way Dry Suit is.

 

[fireflock]

The average shop-based instructor likes to sell what the shop has on the sales floor.

Most dive gear is made for and sold to people who don't know very much about diving (newly certified divers who will soon quit diving).

The average person looks at a traditional BC and thinks it looks plush and comfortable. They look at a BP and think it looks spartan and uncomfortable.

Dive shops would stock and sell different gear if they sold mostly to people who have spent time underwater.

 

[leabre]

@leabre: I could be wrong about this, but the "new BP/W sample" from Aqualung that your course director friend was talking about is probably just the Apeks WTX series BC...which has been out for at least a year or two. There's nothing new about it at all. The product line consists of a SS BP, a "deluxe" one-piece webbed harness, a TransPac-like soft harness, and a smattering of wings. You can check out photos and specs of the Apeks BC line on the Aqualung website. Hope this info helps...

You might be right, it's just new for Sports Challet (where I get my air filled).

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Dive shops would stock and sell different gear if they sold mostly to people who have spent time underwater.

This is exactly my point and my complaint about dive shops; they don't want to stock or sell gear to experienced divers because they don't want to carry another line.
But why not stock and sell gear that experienced divers use and start people out in open water with the same gear. They would still be selling one line of gear and everyone would be happy. I think the reason they don't is partly ignorance and partly numbers. There's more money in fluffy gear, plain and simple.
I think dive shop owners know about it but don't want to hear it and are hoping it will go away. When someone walks in and mentions BP/W the owner covers both ears and goes "lalalalalalalalalalalalala"

 

[Web Monkey]

This is exactly my point and my complaint about dive shops; they don't want to stock or sell gear to experienced divers because they don't want to carry another line.
But why not stock and sell gear that experienced divers use and start people out in open water with the same gear.

"Experienced" divers don't necessarily use a BP. In fact, some of the most experienced divers I know (including some that started out with a fire-extinguisher tank and diagrams from Popular Mechanics) dive with a SCUBAPro Classic.

I'm not sure why recreational shops don't carry more (any?) BPs. It's probably something mundane, like lower margin, more work and more inventory (lots of wing styles and lifts), however this is just a guess.

Maybe some dive shop owners can step up to the plate (pun intended) with some answers.

Terry

 

[RAWalker]

Soo.....

Buying a conventional BC is the equivalent of getting a "safe" Big Mac when In and Out Burgers are available for those willing to make the effort to find them?

The herd seldom finds the sweetest grass.

Tobin

No the real point is some will like The Big Mac while others like the Whopper. I have tried In and Out Burgers and would pick a Carls Western Six dollar. I know some people like Wendy's and other like What a Burger.
They each feel satisfied with their choice and that is the real point.
Getting back to BCDs some people like the feel of a jacket and some prefer a BP&W. Some like a 1 piece harness other prefer a harness with releases and still other want padding and or pockets.
They are each entitled to use what works for them and makes them comfortable, happy and allows then to enjoy the sport. Enjoying the sport and your choices are what make those choices the right choice for the individual as long as those choice provide reasonable safety for the conditions they are going to be used in.

 

[cool_hardware52]

No the real point is some will like The Big Mac while others like the Whopper. I have tried In and Out Burgers and would pick a Carls Western Six dollar. I know some people like Wendy's and other like What a Burger.
They each feel satisfied with their choice and that is the real point.
Getting back to BCDs some people like the feel of a jacket and some prefer a BP&W. Some like a 1 piece harness other prefer a harness with releases and still other want padding and or pockets.
They are each entitled to use what works for them and makes them comfortable, happy and allows then to enjoy the sport. Enjoying the sport and your choices are what make those choices the right choice for the individual as long as those choice provide reasonable safety for the conditions they are going to be used in.

As usual you have again missed my point.

Show me one time where I've told any diver that they cannot or should not use what they find best for them.

If you want to use 45 lbs bungeed wings and complex multi buckled harnesses etc. you have every right to do so.

OTOH if you choose to promote such choices to others you need to be able to defend them.

I do object to the tired, weak argument that BC's must be "good" simply because the majority of divers use one.

Tobin