Do certs matter to you?

[Snowbear]

...When I got out of college, I received a diploma that few outside my family have ever seen, but I like it on the wall...

What a showoff wink
I don't think anyone's ever seen mine :icon82:

 

[Liveandletdive]

I wonder how many people die each year skiing? I also wonder how many people die each year rock climbing. According to DAN 86 died in 2002 in SCUBA related accidents.

Never forget you guys consider yourselves the elite of this sport. Most of this conversation is really about some accountant who wants to see some cool fish on vacation in the BVI. That guy may just need some of that training you are slaging so hard here.

I have seen more then one student struggle in the pool, then struggle in the open water. But once that struggling student has a chance to dump the task load and enjoy the diving they usually become a good diver. When we get them back for a AOW or some specialty i.e. rescue we get another crack at working on the skills that will help them be a better, safer divers.

I personally would completely ignore some one who is pushing cards in my face and telling me how great they are. As opposed to rejecting the whole system.

BTW my wife is an attorney and she was laughing at all the talk of "signed waivers". In the world today, waivers do not prevent or even slow down law suits. If we did not have a well established certification program we would not have a dive industry.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I wonder how many people die each year skiing? I also wonder how many people die each year rock climbing. According to DAN 86 died in 2002 in SCUBA related accidents.

Never forget you guys consider yourselves the elite of this sport. Most of this conversation is really about some accountant who wants to see some cool fish on vacation in the BVI. That guy may just need some of that training you are slaging so hard here.

Training may indeed come in handy but what he needs for entry is a card and that's often all that's being sold.

I have seen more then one student struggle in the pool, then struggle in the open water. But once that struggling student has a chance to dump the task load and enjoy the diving they usually become a good diver. When we get them back for a AOW or some specialty i.e. rescue we get another crack at working on the skills that will help them be a better, safer divers.

First off, they only strugle in open water because they weren't taught what they needed in class and in the pool. I haven't noticed that these divers usually go on to become good. Some do but many quit, many go on crawling oround on the bottom without a clue and some even get hurt.

The basics need to be learned before their turned loose in that water not in an AOW or rescue class.

I personally would completely ignore some one who is pushing cards in my face and telling me how great they are. As opposed to rejecting the whole system.

At this point I have enough experience with the system that I'm comfortable rejecting to whole thing

BTW my wife is an attorney and she was laughing at all the talk of "signed waivers". In the world today, waivers do not prevent or even slow down law suits. If we did not have a well established certification program we would not have a dive industry.

Maybe your wife needs to do a little research because many dive related law suits have been dismissed on the basis of the release alone. The agency and the insurance company have lots of lawyers and they insist on the releases for a reason.

 

[Genesis]

http://www.arthurhu.com/index/health/death.htm

Note at the spectrum here....

Scuba diving doesn't even make this list, but, I'll note that you're about as likely to die doing it as you are getting bit by fire ants (no, I'm not kidding), and its more likely you'll get sucked up by a tornado.

 

[DeepScuba]

No way Sean:

The basics of life doesn't exist in the water. No air, too much partial PSI's of any breathign gas we bring down, compression, decompression.

None of this exists top side. We are Totally out of our element under water, which is why it's not at all comparable. You can die eating Cheerios, it certainly wouldn't mean, to any reasonable person that eating is as dangerous as diving!! For pete sake look at the diff's man!

They both COULD be dangerous, but one is inherently MORE dangerous by it's very nature. Diving is more analogous to living in space than skiing!

At least you always are skiing at 1 ATA and have unlimitted air and no "deco time". Sure there's the avalanche, but we're talking strictly straight forward, every day occurence events of the two.

Try to "butt-slide" your way out of diving, we'll be there to pick up the body. Diving is less forgiving.

When we grow gills, I'll accept the analogy.

MikeF:

You may reject the whole thing, but as I has said earlier, and LALD had said, most folks are puddle jumpers who don't and won't spend the time to learn to be better. They are oblivious as a result. Some minimal training is better than none at all, and rejecting the whole thing would only serve to kill more divers. That being said, very few puddle jumpers die each year, which means it ain't all that bad.

Mybe you drive better than I, so I should never own a drivers licence. Maybe your parenting skills are better than mine, so take away my kids. And it could go on and on.

C'mon guys, some people just wanna dive once a year in the tropics. So what if they suck at diving? They've been taught the basics, the rest is up to them. If they die, so be it. It was their choice, and the odds of them taking you down are truly NILL. It was their fault, not the instructors, or their respective agencies.

It's faulty to expect everybody to be a Michael Kane, and they shouldn't have to be to have fun.

 

[Liveandletdive]

Maybe your wife needs to do a little research because many dive related law suits have been dismissed on the basis of the release alone. The agency and the insurance company have lots of lawyers and they insist on the releases for a reason.

That is true that she is not a SCUBA lawyer but I can not afford her hourly rate to do that research so I guess we will never know for sure. But this I do know, to say that a case was "dismissed" it still had to go before a judge several times before it was dismissed. And that costs money. Have you been sued? Have you been through the months and years of torment wondering if you are going to be the next victim of litigation lotto? Do you understand what kind of a hassle a law suit is to a business? I am not going to highjack this thread in to a law school debate.

Mike, you are never going to convince me and I will never convince you. So I will just stop trying (and posting). I wish you luck in your quest to take PADI down and rebuild a true diving program that can train 100,000s of divers safely and effectively.

 

[Genesis]

That is true that she is not a SCUBA lawyer but I can not afford her hourly rate to do that research so I guess we will never know for sure. But this I do know, to say that a case was "dismissed" it still had to go before a judge several times before it was dismissed. And that costs money. Have you been sued? Have you been through the months and years of torment wondering if you are going to be the next victim of litigation lotto? Do you understand what kind of a hassle a law suit is to a business? I am not going to highjack this thread in to a law school debate.

Now you know why we need a single, statutory form of a waiver and provision in the statute that if you sue despite it being there, the person(s) sued are entitled to (as a matter of STATUTE, not case law!) all their fees and costs along with a dismissal - no ifs, ands, buts, maybes or discretion.

 

[Liveandletdive]

but then we would be poor

 

[Genesis]

At least 'yer honest about it....

 

[DFC5343]

Respect is earned and the providers of that education have earned every bit of that respect too.



funny you mention that. Not long ago I saw a documentary on US SEAL traiing. It was tough. They were harrasses big time. They had their gear torn off and there were lots of stamina skills. They never showed them really dive though. All the training shown was mostly while kneeling on the bottom. During most of the training shown they didn't even have any kind of buoyancy control device. they were using double hose regs and I guess that's because they were preparing for rebreathers? At the end of the show they showed these guys diving on the job (in rebreathers). While they are no doubt very tough men and are no doubt capable of doing the job they were trained to do there wasn't a single one who would have graduated my OW class because their technique was terrible. They were head up/foot down trim, negatively buoyant and kicking to maintain depth. If there was a silty bottom within 15 ft the vis would instantly be zero.

I guess they're trained to something totally different. If they were going to dive with us they'd need retraining from the start.

SEALS have to be neutral with the LAR5. They use a Secumar vest which is not a bouyancy compensator but a life jacket. They have to be perfect with what they carry. Now you slap on a limpet you are negative. If you compensate for the mine weight then when it is placed you are positive and also compromised on the surface when you do a uncontrollable ascent. What you saw on TV doesn't represent a fraction of military diving. Visability has nothing to do with mission success. It is a factor but diving where the vis is usually zero is the norm. It is a totally different diving technique. What makes all Navy divers unique is that they can all adapt to any and all situations. Your "class" would be easyday.