Do certs matter to you?

[Jetwrench]

think cert cards were the end-all when I first started diving but have since changed my perspective. My last dive was with a so-called rescue cert buddy(first dive with him) diving dry. His weight was off, and of course buoyancy erratic, and I ended up holding him down so he wouldn't wear himself out trying to stay down for the safety stop.Then I find out he has 25 dives, all in classes with little to no experience outside the instruction scenario. Really, a rescue diver is he? Not in my book. There are others I have dived with with lesser certs and more skill. I now judge the diver on his/her ability both above and below the surface. Keep your plastic in your wallet/purse. I still consider myself a noob(180 dives and counting), but I can tell when a diver is "not really a diver". Skills are the tell-all.

Jetwrench

 

[Uncle Pug]

Dive Rescue International (public safety diver training) certifications also expire.

Any other expiring certs?

 

[bwerb]

OK...the reason I brought up the GUE Tech cert has been hit by a few people (thank you UP)...and totally missed by others...(nice slam diverbrian).

Basically my point was that love them or hate them...leave the emotions out of it this time...a GUE certification DOES mean something tangible and concrete. Let me try to explain a bit of my thought pattern here...and I'm not making this post as a giant flag waving for GUE, I'm making it to look at how they have responded to the problems of certifications which don't really tell you anything about the diver.

What have they done...well...aside from a few rec courses we are looking at technical training...so...this is a bit different from OW in that you are starting with some basic skills and understandings. First...they made all their courses pass/fail but...people regularly fail...regardless of how much money they have paid or what their previous certifications were. Second the objectives to pass each level are stringent and...I think regardless of what another poster said, that the pressure is intensified and it is harder to keep it all together when performing for an instructor and a video camera is recording everything. Third, the cards expire...you must continue to dive to the hightest level of certification regularly or you lose that certification...this is a whole different argument but suffice it to say, how many of us know Instructors who rarely dive without teaching students. Fourth, the instructors must be certified to a level above that which they are teaching and...same rules apply...they must continue to dive at that level regularly or they lose their ability to teach.

So, what I'm aiming at here is that it IS possible for a C card (regardless of agency) to mean something IF the agency takes the time to objectively and concretely put in place some checks and balances to ensure that their certifications aren't awarded with such widely varying consistency. I think that all agencies can take a look at what GUE has done and learn something. We can argue all day long about the merits or lack there of in their teaching but...I think you will have to admit that you have a much much better chance of diving with someone who's skills will be up to snuff if they show you a current GUE Tech card than someone who shows you a random Instructor Trainer card etc.

Instead of arguing about how your classes make students earn their cards or that your instructors demanded more from you...why don't we all start demanding more from our agencies. It seems that unfortunately, for the "giant agencies"...it really is all about the money now and the losers out of all of this are the brand new divers who will be walking into shop X to learn to be a diver...they are entering a casino and will have no real idea if they won or lost until much later.

 

[matt_unique]

I will note from my experience with a TDI class that there were students not allowed to finish based on a lack of skills. We started with 4 divers and only 2 of us completed the course as scheduled. The other divers were required to correct problems prior to continuing with the course. This was refreshing to see.

One of my points in the previous thread (about the 12 yr old Junior MSD) was that the higher the level of certification the LESS likely someone will be a bad diver. Not and end all of course, but less likely from my experience.

--Matt

 

[diverbrian]

OK...the reason I brought up the GUE Tech cert has been hit by a few people (thank you UP)...and totally missed by others...(nice slam diverbrian).

Basically my point was that love them or hate them...leave the emotions out of it this time...a GUE certification DOES mean something tangible and concrete. Let me try to explain a bit of my thought pattern here...and I'm not making this post as a giant flag waving for GUE, I'm making it to look at how they have responded to the problems of certifications which don't really tell you anything about the diver.

What have they done...well...aside from a few rec courses we are looking at technical training...so...this is a bit different from OW in that you are starting with some basic skills and understandings. First...they made all their courses pass/fail but...people regularly fail...regardless of how much money they have paid or what their previous certifications were. Second the objectives to pass each level are stringent and...I think regardless of what another poster said, that the pressure is intensified and it is harder to keep it all together when performing for an instructor and a video camera is recording everything. Third, the cards expire...you must continue to dive to the hightest level of certification regularly or you lose that certification...this is a whole different argument but suffice it to say, how many of us know Instructors who rarely dive without teaching students. Fourth, the instructors must be certified to a level above that which they are teaching and...same rules apply...they must continue to dive at that level regularly or they lose their ability to teach.

So, what I'm aiming at here is that it IS possible for a C card (regardless of agency) to mean something IF the agency takes the time to objectively and concretely put in place some checks and balances to ensure that their certifications aren't awarded with such widely varying consistency. I think that all agencies can take a look at what GUE has done and learn something. We can argue all day long about the merits or lack there of in their teaching but...I think you will have to admit that you have a much much better chance of diving with someone who's skills will be up to snuff if they show you a current GUE Tech card than someone who shows you a random Instructor Trainer card etc.

Instead of arguing about how your classes make students earn their cards or that your instructors demanded more from you...why don't we all start demanding more from our agencies. It seems that unfortunately, for the "giant agencies"...it really is all about the money now and the losers out of all of this are the brand new divers who will be walking into shop X to learn to be a diver...they are entering a casino and will have no real idea if they won or lost until much later.

I am a graduate of the Navy's Nuclear Power program. It took seemingly forever to get through and many people failed out (A little over 50 percent of the people that I started with made it to the third and final phase of training). The fact that someone graduated the program didn't tell me anything about them as a person or an operator. All the drills in prototype training were an indicator, but you never knew how an operator would react until the brown stuff hit the rotating blades. Until it did, you couldn't completely trust them.

Any piece of plastic issued by any agency is about the same. You said "What does it tell you the diver?" My answer is: let the DIVER tell/show me about the diver. A piece of plastic is still a piece of plastic. If the person is having a fight with his/her SO (or some other outside issue), many times that is more stress than an instructor will put on you.

So, let's redirect here. It still doesn't tell me about the diver. Just as my Adv. Nitrox card means that I had to do certain skills and certain dives (and it took about six months to fill all the requirements), it didn't make me a better diver. It means that I did those skills and dives. I know of several divers that were picture perfect for the classes and have excellent buoyancy control that turn into "cowboys" once the course is over.

You're right, it is hard to act when being filmed with an instructor watching over you. To me personally, that is more stressful than an actual incident as I am a classic type "A" perfectionist. But you wouldn't know that until you talked with me and watched me dive. That piece of plastic doesn't talk. Just as you won't know if I am a "cowboy" or not until speaking with me or watching me dive. I would say the same of an other diver.

As to the issues with the "giant agencies". We all know that GUE couldn't grow much more and maintain their standards. They would have too large an overhead just verifying the expiring C-Cards every year. And for their niche, (...this is not a slam, keep in mind I have supported GUE in other places on this board) that is fine. The other issue would be instructors. When you go much over the number of instructors that GUE carries, the upper management just doesn't have the control over them that they had before.

For getting people onto the reefs, the "giant agencies" do their job. Their REPRESENTATIVES don't always do it well, LOL. But, they get people like me (who had a casual interest until he started breathing a reg in the pool) into the water initially. Then many times an organization like GUE or IANTD attracts the ones who want to learn better basic skills. The system isn't perfect, but it never will be. It is always a balance and that pedulum always swings.....

So, my previous post was simply a comment that a card doesn't tell me about a diver. A diver tells me about a diver. It was not a slam on GUE even though that may be how it came out (I have to quit posting at 3:00 am, LOL).

 

[Cave Diver]

After reading so many reply posts to the recent thread on a really young diver getting a MSD cert, I wanted to ask you if any dive certification mattered to you, and if so why. To me, ALL certifications hold very little value at all in the sense that they don't say anything about your diving skills. And maybe that's not their intention - but it seems as if we associate the two as being relevant, and then we bash all the agencies for turnig out divers who don't measure up to our expectations. It seems a little like we say it matters on one hand, but then turn around and spew contrary dialog.
I'd really like to either understand why I don't get it, or if it's just human nature to bash others so that we feel better?

Absolutely. I have three certs that mean a great deal to me. Full Cave, Trimix and Dive Master.

Why? Because they allow me to opportunity to do practically any type of diving that I am interested in. Many cave systems are restricted to divers with at least a cavern cert, some are restricted to full cave only. No cert, no dive.

Some wrecks I dove required proof of Trimix training in order for me to be included in the trip, as they were well beyond recreational depths and would require extensive deco. And I have ran into cases where holding the appropriate card was not enough. I was also asked to provide references of people I had dove similar conditions with in order to verify my qualifications. That was something I was happy to provide, because I knew that would keep the quality of divers on the trip at a higher standard.

And finally, my DM cert allows me to help out with students and to take charge of groups and trips that I ordinarily would not be able to do.

Do I expect my certs to mean anything to anyone else? Nope. The only person I expect them to matter to is the person I show them to when I sign in.

 

[simbrooks]

Well i am going to get into the process of "collecting cards" over the years, not for the sake of it, but to gain knowledge of an new skill/type of diving and then try to get out and use that new info to dive better. I am not going to try to get the very tough fish ID type ones, but i might like to do a cavern after AOW, rescue and a few others - cos i think i will want to dive in many types of environments that i dont currently do. Do i think it is a "license", of course not, but it gives me a chance of being intoduced to a new sphere of diving that i might kill myself doing IF i didnt get the training.

Will the cards say anything about my diving, watch me in the water and see how i dive, make your own conclusions. I want to learn more, to experience the wide variety of different environments that diving can offer and move more seriously into some of them, so i think the training is very useful - the card at the end is just a reminder that i passed a few tests of what i was taught along the way.

 

[diverbrian]

I place blame for this in two places:

1. The resorts, boats, cave owners (including the state) and others who have decided to turn a scuba certifcation into the equivalent of a license. Instead of objectively describing the hazards of a given dive and then insisting on iron-clad liability releases, and letting the chips fall where they may (and allowing Darwin to pick up the pieces), what the "consumption" side of the industry has done is instead demand your "diver license" to their satisfaction. As an example, try to find a boat that will take you to the SG without an AOW card. Good luck. I called around a couple of months ago and they all, to a single boat, wanted the card. They would not accept a logbook showing any amount of experience (not even technical, deco dives!) in place of it, nor did they care if I had any actual dives beyond my AOW card at all. No card, no dive - period.

This leads to....

2. The supply-side (instruction) of the industry issuing the certs to those who pay for them, because the demand has to be filled.

If you want to solve this problem, you have to get rid of the idea that "certifications" are credentials. They are not intended to be and we need to stop treating them as if they are.

This applies to all of the local dive shops, boats, landowners, etc.

Until then the problem won't go away - the shops, boat-owners, cave landowners and agencies are all complicit in this. Nobody gets a pass on this one.

Genesis,

You and I have had it out on this one before. I agree that that the log is more important than the card. But, some of us don't wish to be around when Darwin takes his share.

I dive one site every summer. The initial "price of admission" is my AOW card. The second thing before I am allowed on the boat (for the two best wrecks in the area) is a look at my dive to verify that I have logged 10 Cold Water deep dives in the last six months. Third, the charter captain that we use is an experienced dive master. If he doesn't think that you are fit to dive, you don't go in. This is regardless of the money that you have paid or the waivers that you sign. He is one of the few boat captains up there who hasn't had to watch Darwin at work and he is proud of that. BTW, the two wrecks that I refer to have claimed better than 10 divers apiece since they started recording incidents. When acting as a DiveCon, my personal view is "NOT ON MY WATCH!" It is traumatic for people to get injured or killed when you could have done something about it. It is also nice to know that someone with more experience with a particular site actually has an interest in their customers and a conscience. In spite of your individualist attitude, I am sure that you can see my point.

Off my rant now.

When the screening process on a "dangerous" or "widow-maker" site starts and stops with that plastic card, I have to say that it is wrong. If that card is just a start, <see above example> than I don't have a problem with it. Using the card in this manner is alright when tempered with common sense. I don't agree that a dive log shouldn't count if you don't have an advanced card with you. It should.

But, I am sure that the charter's insurance companies and lawyers see things differently and the boat captain doesn't have time to do check-out dives on everybody that wants to go to the wreck that you refer to. They have to something to keep the courts and juries happy, LOL.

 

[IndigoBlue]

After reading so many reply posts to the recent thread on a really young diver getting a MSD cert, I wanted to ask you if any dive certification mattered to you, and if so why. To me, ALL certifications hold very little value at all in the sense that they don't say anything about your diving skills. And maybe that's not their intention - but it seems as if we associate the two as being relevant, and then we bash all the agencies for turnig out divers who don't measure up to our expectations. It seems a little like we say it matters on one hand, but then turn around and spew contrary dialog.
I'd really like to either understand why I don't get it, or if it's just human nature to bash others so that we feel better?

Some certs are extremely valuable, particularly those that allow you to obtain fills of gasses beyond air.

Basic nitrox is a great cert. It allows you to obtain EANx fills from 21 to 40% O2. That is valuable if your are diving deeper than 50 ft or more than 2 dives per day or more than 2 days in a row.

Basic trimix is a great cert. It allows you go obtain helium mixes of 21% O2 and richer, called Helitrox (helium + nitrox). These mixes are great for technical dives to 185 ft.

Advanced trimix is a great cert. It allows you to obtain any helium mixes, even with O2 fractions of less than 21%, for diving deeper than 185 ft during technical dives.

An instructor cert is a great cert. It allows you to teach scuba, with the authorization of a major agency, with insurance. An instructor-trainer cert allows you to certify other student instructors, and a course-director cert allows you to certify other instructor-trainers.

Any other cert either gives you additional training, that is valuable, or else provides you with a prerequisite for one of the above specific certs.

Basic rescue is a great cert, because as a diving buddy, you may be called upon to rescue someone. It also gives you a wealth of knowledge about self-rescue.

Divemaster or assistant-instructor or training-assistant allows you to help instructors with classes. That will get you a free lunch, or possible even $50 per day, for your help, depending on the instructor. And it will qualify you for entering an ITC.

Advanced nitrox and decompression procedures are prerequisites.

That leaves all the other unmentioned certs: AOW, specialties, & master diver. Drysuit diving is a valuable specialty. AOW is a combination of specialties, such as deeper diving (to 100 ft), night diving, additional navigation, etc. Master diver in NAUI is an academic theory class with developmental dives associated with the specific topics. Master diver in PADI is a combination of additional specialties. I am not familiar with the other agencies' master diver courses (YMCA, SSI, ANDI, etc.)

Continuing education in diving is good, because you learn how to do new things from trained and licensed instructors. You can get your additional training from your dive buddies, but you won't know if they are teaching you an approved methodology or not. Either way, you are learning.

The worst thing is to dive only infrequently, and without further training. That is an accident waiting to happen.

 

[HamsterHuey]

Do I expect my certs to mean anything to anyone else? Nope. The only person I expect them to matter to is the person I show them to when I sign in.

A-FREAKING-men

Of course certs mean something...to the holder. Others, like a Nitrox card, mean something to others. Even an OW card means something, no matter what agency you get it from.

If you get the Uber Diver Helmet of Happiness, which, as we all know, is roughly three feet in diameter, weighs 40 pounds, and is worn around the neck...you get the pride (???) of knowing you did whatever you needed to do to get the Uber-whatsit.

Seems like the worry is over the guy, or gal, that gets a card, and then goes around kicking sand in the faces of the 98-pound non-card holders. And how common are those types?