Diving without a C-Card?

[garyfotodiver]

Why are you fixated on air fills? One can certainly even purchase a compressor (as I am certain many SBers have) and get around the need to have someone else provide air fills.

SCUBA diving, just like everything else in the world, has a certain element of risk attached to it. Our job is to reduce the risk, not run around pointing fingers of blame when something goes wrong.

If something goes wrong when you are 30 or 60 feet under, it is your problem and you have to fix it. That's why I chuckle when I read posts about equipment warranties, for example. If your regulator craps out, it doesn't matter whether the manufacturer will stand behind it. If you don't feel comfortable with someone else servicing your equipment, do it yourself. If you don't trust the LDS's air supply, do it yourself.

If you don't like the fact that there are experienced divers out there who do not have a piece of paper from NAUI or PADI or SSI or YMCA attesting to their SCUBA prowess, don't dive with them.

Just don't whine about it.

 

[mike_s]

I went down the road to Down Under and ordered a tank with the valve and color of my choice. I got fills for 3 years at Down Under before they ever found out that I wasn't a diver, they continued filling the tanks for me afterwards as well.

The time I went out diving with Down Under, they never asked to
see a C-card from me. They had me fill out their forms, took my
money w/o problem, but I never was asked for a card.

 

[redacted]

Well, all of this information is great- but like I mentioned in my first post, someone at SOME point of my time working in the industry that they knew someone who's boat was taken from them- that was why I just was hoping for some clarification. Our dive shop USED to fill paintball tanks, but no longer will do it. And there is nothing saying we can not sell regs or bc's to someone w/out a cert, but we won't sell them a tank OR fill the tank.

At least if your annual raises are a little lighter than you would have liked, you will already know at least one of the reasons.

I guess I always knew that some of the nonsense that goes on with many LDSs was really stupidity rather than greed.

 

[DEEPSEAWOLF]

I remember reading in one of my paintball mags about a guy who was trying to sue a diveshop that "BLEW UP" his tank. The suit was dropped when:
-the judge found out the guy was not scuba certified, but the judge WAS
-the guy had some IDIOT fill his tank prior to the BOOM fill with liquid CO2 instead of compressed air, and he even rambled about how he had to buy a "SPECIAL" adapter so this could be done
-the dive shop countersued for damages but didn't get them when the judge heard the tank didn't have hydro stickers and they had filled his tanks before without getting a copy of his c-card

Fortunately nobody was hurt or killed in this instance. There were some other details I can't remember, but the article was by a "Friend" of the tank owner who also was a field owner. It was an article slamming the "Diver friendly" community. It brought a LOT of return mail supposedly (I missed a few issues of mags for a while). I remember reading a response from someone like myself wo had been playing since splatmasters and PGP's were TOP OF THE LINE gear, and the only safety masks were chainsaw goggles. They attempted to explain how careless everyone was and what COULD have happened if someone had been killed by these actions.

My Scuba Center may eventually run air fills and such, but regardless, I'll leave PB fills to PB shops! Unless the person shows me a valid c-card, they won't get a fill.
One quick airbuck for the wrong person can cost everything later. I ALWAYS carry my c-card in my wallet. When I go diving, it comes out and gets clipped to my BC slate and tucked in the pocket, (unless the divesite holds the card). I will also be getting duplicates once I reach the next level of cert. I like the idea of having a spare in case the main is left behind on the trip. Then again, being certed by a major agency helps as does writing your cert#/instructor's ID#/date on the back of your driver's license.

So far, most of the deaths have been from idiots doing what they are not trained to do, from freedivers entering cave systems, to people pushing beyond their trained limits.
Others have died so that I don't have to. My training is fast and easy to obtain, be it expensive in some cases. It is still cheaper to get a cave cert than to pay for a funeral.

 

[Scubaguy62]

Well, all of this information is great- but like I mentioned in my first post, someone at SOME point of my time working in the industry that they knew someone who's boat was taken from them- that was why I just was hoping for some clarification. Our dive shop USED to fill paintball tanks, but no longer will do it. And there is nothing saying we can not sell regs or bc's to someone w/out a cert, but we won't sell them a tank OR fill the tank. I don't know about my co-workers, but if I get a person in that I do not know (which happens occasionally) and they want to rent a tank or get an airfill, I ALWAYS make sure to check their card. There is so much liability behind filling a tank for someone who isn't certified. In the instance where someone comes in w/out their c-card, I have to make a call to someone that certified them, or to the agency they are saying certified them. We had to start cracking down on it. So many times though, when I ask someone for their c-card- the people are always like "WOW, I don't remember the LAST time someone asked to see it". I guess if someone is "smart" enough to dive without going through a course, then it is really their own fault if they wind up with some kind of diving related injury (and/or dead) We have a big sign posted that says we have the right to refuse certain tanks (with rust, corrosion, without current vip or hydro, Walter Kidde tanks, and we can refuse to fill for someone NOT presenting a c-card) I follow these guidelines, but I can't say if my co-workers do or not?

As far as buying a tank online though, sure you can do that without being certified, but god only hopes the dive shops are smart enough to be checking for c-cards before filling, otherwise I guess THEY would then be liable for giving a fill to someone NOT certified.

I think you're confusing what is due diligence with liability. For you to be liable you either know, or should have known, the use intended for the tank. If you knew the tank was going to be used for scuba, by a non-certified diver, you could have either refused to fill the tank, or have the person sign a release of liability. OTOH, if you should have reasonably known the tank was going to be used for scuba, by a non-certified diver, and didn't avail your responsibility, it is the burden of whomever wished to sue you to prove you knew, or should have known, the person was not a certified diver, to which your defense would be whatever your lawyer says it is.

There might be some insurance imposed requirements, but that in it of itself does not make it a law. And as far as that someone who knows someone whose boat was taken from them, I'm from Missouri (show me state). In Florida there is a legal duty to exercise care, but I don't believe that duty extends to verifying C-cards. After all, that's what the release form is for. Unless a law enforcement officer has reasonable suspicion to believe a law is being, or about to be broken, the siezing of a boat only because the boat owner, operator, or capt., allowed a non-certified diver, who signed a release, to dive off it, would be unlawful, because no LAW has been broken. A diver's safety is their own responsibility, and unless the Capt. violated some USCG, county, or state law that warranted the siezing of a boat (like operating a boat while drunk), it would not escalate beyond the point of a citation being issued.

 

[stevetim]

A C-Card is just a piece of plastic for someone who has taken a brief amount of time to get certified. Diving on a boat with my buddies a few weeks ago, a 'certified' diver got on board and sat next to me. He was a single diver who needed to be buddied up. I am a new diver so my thinking was I have enough of my own problems to contend with, therefore I would not be a good buddy to an 'experienced' diver I am not familiar with. The single diver was in town on vacation, and had none of his own gear which is not a big deal by any means. But I was in a little disbelief when he was gearing up next to me and asked if I could set his tank up because, "It's been a little while since my last dive". Jigga what?! To make a longer story short, he really pissed of the full-facemasked, bp/w, married couple the divemaster buddied him up with. I really felt bad for them, because they had to basically instruct this guy while they tried to enjoy their dives.
My point is, the card means you are certified, but don't log books mean more to a diver, the LDS, and the boats DM?

 

[Walter]

Hydro stickers?

 

[DennisW]

Interesting thread. Of course there is no laws requiring certification to dive or to get tank fills. I know at least two people that dive and have never been certified. They began diving before certification was wide spread. At that time, other than LAC certs, YMCA was the only agency and there was no YMCA in their area. They bought their gear from the Sears catalog and went diving.

 

[HowardE]

So it seems that the question should be "Should there be laws requiring C-Cards to dive with dive operators?"

 

[Walter]

So it seems that the question should be "Should there be laws requiring C-Cards to dive with dive operators?"

Of course not.