Diving Uncertified !!!!

[Bobb]

WOW !!! I guess I struck some nerves out there/in here....
First off, I'd like to let you know that my son is 25 years old...not 3 or 4 or 5..so he understands the seriousness of this hobby/sport. Secondly, I started him diving on the hookah system, which unlike someone stated, is exactly the same as "real diving" the only difference is that you have no tank strapped to your back. You are using compressed air, have a mask, fins, BCD, weights, exposure suit, gloves, regs, etc. you are limited on air, although not as limited as a tank. Also you are limited to a depth of not more than 40' absolute max. Now I stated that I have logged 30 dives..these are after becoming certified (legal to some of you)I have dove about 90 - 100 times on hookah. Now I'm not saying that I'm an expert by any means, and I am learning on each and every dive that I make...but isn't that the point? To enjoy and learn about the great u/w life!
And as I stated in my original post...My son will become certified at some point for all of the reasons everyone has mentioned throughout their posts. My main reason was to get him interested in diving without the initial outlay of hard earned cash...I have bought 2 sets of everything, so that he too may enjoy the sport and to see if he really does like it enough to get his c card. As far as instructors go, I have no complaints about my instructors (plural) I was the only one signed up at the time, so there were times that I had 5 people in the pool with me...I had taken a cd-rom course (padi) prior to signing up with my LDS (who became SSI in the process)...Also, someone made a comment about an untrained diver (uncertified) would be like me diving solo....of all of my dives (approx 125 - 130) about 100 or more have been solo...and I have read the posts on the differences of opinion on that subject as well....I think that this is a great board and my intentions were not to get anyone ticked off at instructors, other members, or even me...And I do appreciate all of the feedback from everyone....even the reference to Darwin....

 

[silverfish]

Boy you sure know how to open a can of worms!!!LOL

I am a real newbie.OW cert with only 5 dives,However I am the veteran parent of four children.The oldest is a 25 yr old male.A simple fact about young men is that they are invincible...right??? And they tend to be CONSIDERABLY smarter than their overprotective, conservative parents.
It is my experience that most anything they have ever done is "easy" to do .Tons of testosterone has that effect, or so I'm told. I will assume that you are a very detailed oriented teacher.(For the sake of this discussion)Let's even pretend that your son is exceptional in sensebilities.
But no matter what else we assume, you are his parent and he is your child.Boys will be boys =-) and I think if I were in your shoes I would prefer a professional instructor be the focus of his comments or critiscism.That way you are not, therefore, you might have the opportunity to dicuss the rights and or wrongs of his instructor.

May you both dive safe and be happy.

 

[Se7en]

And spydertek and LostYouper

Go ahead, and take your son for a dive or two, in conditions you are comfortable with. Spend some time with him beforehand going over the physics, and the procedures. Spend a lot of time emphasising that the single most important thing for him to do is to keep breathing.

Do a few dives where you go through the stuff you would cover in the OW course... good practice for you as well.
Do some more - it's not costing you much, and any time spent blowing bubbles is worth while.

Stay in the shallows, in good conditions. Perhaps stick with shore dives. Stick well inside the rule of thirds.

Encourage questions, and if you can't answer one, BOTH of you go find out. Quiz each other.

Have fun.

My story: I was taught to dive in approximately the above fashion some 10 years ago... when I was an ego fired male of 21/22. I'd done some 50 odd dives before a friend at a dive shop stuck me on a course... which was incidently the first course the friend who taught me to dive assisted at as part of his DM training. I had a good instructor, and learnt a lot of stuff to extend my diving - such as calculating multi level dives, and deco dive tables.

The practical side was a breeze - because I'd spent time in the gear before, and had practiced most of the stuff in a no pressure environemnt.

Becuase I knew I was inexperienced, I dove conservatively, and practiced the skills - I spent whole dives with my buddy in 5m of water practicing boyancy exercises... not 5 minutes doing fin pivots on a course. I also ate a lot of abalone and crayfish

Since been forced to do PADI AOW - which was a complete waste of time as I've complained about elsewhere. Done a lot of fun dives, and quite a few forgettable ones too.

Have also taken a couple of non divers diving. One didn't like it, but has become a keen snorkler. The other did, and with 50 odd dives (and AOW qualified) is just starting to learn to be a good diver. We're going for a play this weekend, for both of us to practice boyance etc before a 5 day trip to GBR / Coral sea

My opinion: (which has an intrinsic value of nothing) is that this approach will at worst show that your son doesn't like diving. At best, he will have the personal attention of someone who is giving him 100% commitment, and the time and motivation to practice skills that NO instructor on a OW course can give.

For those instructors who disagree (as if ) - answer this;
How many of your open water students would you be comfortable saying that they can replace their weight belts in 20m. of water, in a 7mm wet suit, on a drift dive?

And that's a normal dive that is recommended for OW students down here in Melbourne, before anyone complains that they shouldn't be on that dive.

Another question - how come so many of the divers I see that have died due to CF's are instructors?

Now smashing my soap box to pieces

Mike

 

[Scubaroo]

Hey Bobb,

As a new diver very close to your son's age myself, I have to say that my certification experience was a real eye-opener. I won't elaborate too much on my pre-certification experiences, except to say of those 4 dives, 2 of them could easily have seen trips to either a chamber or a morgue, all of them in the presence of "instructors" or "advanced" divers (diving beyond 60 feet, and "yeah I'll watch you from the boat, just finish that tank off, and can you check the anchor's bedded properly while you're down there?"). I mean, I was convinced by an AOW it was safe for me to do a solo dive, because it was "only" 5m deep! Before everyone flames me for such "stupidity", my only diving experiences were resort guides with the standard "never hold your breath, she'll be right" attitudes, keen to convince all the tourists that diving was a fun, safe activity, for only $200 Fijian ("Bula!"). I'd never even heard of an air embolism. Thank God for my open water course. I think I'm lucky to have survived long enough to have enrolled in it.

Being fresh from the certification grinder, I REALLY wish that an experienced diver could have gone diving with my instructors before me and found out what they were really like - I had 3 on my course. Two of them were absolutely FANTASTIC, and if I still lived in that area I'd be booking dives through that shop just to go diving with them again, yet the other thought it would be funny on my first ocean dive to shove my head into an octopus den so he'd have something to laugh about back on the pier (which he did - "You should have seen the look on your face behind that mask!"). I'm fairly sure that the octopus was only slightly more agitated than me. Don't kid yourself, regardless of how safe you think your attitude is, and how valuable your hookah diving was (never done it, but I wouldn't count it as more than breathing practise - sure you wear a BCD, but did you know what the differences between steel and aluminium tanks at the end of the dive was going to feel like?), and how much you love your son and would never let harm come to him, there's people out there who think they can make a LIVING out of dive instruction who's qualifications aren't worth the plastic they're printed on, let alone people who merely have "good intentions". Be a sport, ring up some dive shops, PERSONALLY go diving with some instructors (book them for a guided dive or something), and when you've found someone YOU'D feel comfortable learning from, entrust them with your son, and go home all warm and fuzzy in the knowledge that someone better than you is teaching him. And finally, to be brutally honest, if affordability is an issue, if your son can't afford the $300 to get certified, he isn't going to be able to afford to keep up regular diving anyway. Regs and BCDs need to be either bought (which it sounds like you've done already), rented or serviced.

My jar of pennies worth (2c buys so little these days),

Ben

 

[Walter]

Bob,

You and your son have every right to make your own choices. There is an excellent chance neither of you will be hurt or killed as a result of this choice. The chances of him being hurt or killed are considerably greater because of such a choice, but it's still a choice the two of you have every right to make. Personally, I love my children too much to knowingly increase the odds of killing one of them. Good luck, I sincerely hope everything goes well for you both.

WWW™

 

[Liquid]

Several points:

-Dont take as an example what happened 20-30 years ago. The diving world was different than.

-Who is to say who is good enough to teach scuba?
One may decide that becouse he's done 30 dives and very smart, can teach his kids, another after 50 dives and another after 500 dives. There's no end to it.

-Than there's the "second generation" no certification divers, those that were trained by un-certified divers. Who can guarantee any minimal skills/knowledge in these?

-I had about 300 dives when I started instructing. Still, I didnt know **** about instructing others untill I went through several tutored courses, an instructor course, and, let's face it, the first 2-3 courses I tought weren't those I am most proud of. why am I saying this?
To imply that even someone with 300 (or for this matter 3000) dives, is not qualified to teach untill properly trained.

-You know also why I didnt have a seriouse problem with those first 2 courses?
Becouse of the envirenment. I did it in a large dive center and had senior instructors to consult about everything.

-Let's talk panic. When instructing new students, there's quite a risk of someone panicking. An instructor, that dealt with these situation, will handle it right. Anyone else, even a rescue diver, may not get the picture on time. It takes a lot of experience, in INSTRUCTING to recognize all the problems a student may have, before he even has it. And seeing these things is one of the things that makes a good instructor.

-An instructor has gone through certain levels of diving, and was tested, to make sure he is up to certain standards. Those aren't the toughest around, but still, he has to make it. Anyone else, isn't even tested for these standards.

-You want to teach your kid how to dive?
here's an idea- Why don't YOU go for an instructor course?
I know quite some people who did instructor course just to be able to teach their kids.
Oh yeah, the $$$. Go kill your kidd to save some.

 

[Liquid]

Ok, theres an animal called bad instructors. It's a bad animal, and my guess is that a large portion of the instructors are it. It's a problem. There are also bad teachers, bad bankers, bad dealers, etc, etc. So do what was sugested, try and book a guided with an instructor before entrusting him with your son. Talk to him and see if he knows anything. I've seen my share of bad instructors, hell in my O/W course I had one. I am lucky to be alive today. But still, there are also good instructors, and the majority of instructors are good. I know that when someone from my area asks me where to do his diving course there are only 3 or 4 places I'd recomend, that I know hold relatively good staff, and work with high standards.

 

[uwsince79]

Liquid-

you wrote- "Don’t take as an example what happened 20-30 years ago. The diving world was different than."

I agree In some ways yes but in other ways I say no no.

you wrote-"Who is to say who is good enough to teach scuba?
One may decide that because he's done 30 dives and very smart, can teach his kids, another after 50 dives and another after 500 dives. There's no end to it."

I do believe that I agree with you again once more. I must add this, It is the individual who makes up the instructor. But it is the instructors that make up the industry.

You also wrote "Than there's the "second generation" no certification divers, those that were trained by un-certified divers. Who can guarantee any minimal skills/knowledge in these?"

Who on earth do you think started the agencies you all teach for. I said in the opening of my post that I agree that an instructor is the way to go. But please! I dive and learn from every dive, still to this day. I dive and have been taught by both professionals and non-professionals alike. But MOST OF MY SKILLS have been taught to me by non- professionals. BECAUSE THERE WERE NO INSTRUCTORS AT THE LEVELS WE WERE DIVING. Most of what I was taught over 10 years ago are just becoming standards now!!!! Do you think EAN or Technical was embraced by you industry? PLEASE. Go find some back copies of Aquacorps and see what the industry just thought of Nitrox. As far as knowledge goes, I will go up against anyone or any time. What is the worst thing that can happen, I learn something new? Every time I have ever dove with someone, they have asked me to dive with them again or to help them with some aspect of diving. Now these are just words so, if you find yourself in S Fla. Drop me a line and lets go diving!

You also stated- "To imply that even someone with 300 (or for this matter 3000) dives, is not qualified to teach untill properly trained."

What I said was: “I do not advocate the teaching of scuba by anyone other than a qualified Instructor and under no way do I think, Instructor or not, do you have any business teaching with less than at least 300 dives under your belt and none of them double dipped in order to meet some qualification standard. (There are those of you out there that know what I mean.)” Does that qualify you to teach? H**l NO. Does it give you some time in the water, and time to experience some of what diving has to offer? I THINK, It might. What I am advocating is a higher standard for someone to become an instructor. Did I say 300 dives gives to the knowledge to teach? Of course not, teachers are there own special breed.

Then you wrote-"Let's talk panic. When instructing new students, there's quite a risk of someone panicking. An instructor, that has dealt with these situations, will handle it right. Anyone else, even a rescue diver, may not get the picture on time. It takes a lot of experience, in INSTRUCTING to recognize all the problems a student may have, before he even has it. And seeing these things is one of the things that makes a good instructor."

Now you have struck a nerve, to think the arrogance of you an Instructor the only one qualified to deal with the situation is utter BS! “Anyone else, even a rescue diver, may not get the picture on time.” HA, I had to help an Instructor and his student not 3 weeks ago. And had to save an DM who almost drowned less that a month ago. And on Monday I had a DM run out of air at 115 FSW. SO don’t feed this board a bunch of nonsense about Instructors being the end all. Give DAN a call and see who ends up Jammed up the most. Might be an eye opening call for you. Yes instructors are taught to recognize problems and deal with STUDENTS, but so can anyone with proper experienced of course this is MY OPINION.

You stated- "An instructor has gone through certain levels of diving, and was tested, to make sure he is up to certain standards. Those aren't the toughest around, but still, he has to make it. Anyone else isn't even tested for these standards."

You are taught to teach and to assist students not to be a good diver, plane and simple. A good diver comes with time.

And you wrote- "You want to teach your kid how to dive?
here's an idea- Why don't YOU go for an instructor course?
I know quite some people who did instructor course just to be able to teach their kids.
Oh yeah, the $$$. Go kill your kidd to save some."

Now I too and a very proud dad, and I know you are trying to make a point but telling anyone to kill their child and save some money just goes to show the level of professionalism you are at.

You owe the man an apology, period!

 

[syruss32]

Can't we just swim and dive in peace and harmony. I think all of the following have been CLEARLY laid down in this thread!

1) It is best to get your certification
2) Instructors come in both good and bad model
3) There are varying degrees of trust in the various agencies (PADI, NAUI etc)
4) Emergencies do happen and you should do the utmost to be prepared for them
5) Being an instructor doesn't necessarily make you a good diver.
6) Things go wrong, you don't have to be an instructor to do the right thing, you just have to be equiped to deal with the problem
7) Old divers that were never certified have a great deal of knowledge and even though not certified pioneered many of the things we take for granted
8) Diving is supposed to be fun! If it ceases to be fun you may as well not dive
9) Remember rule # 8
10) If you are teaching someone it is best to be qualified to do so, that doesn't mean you cant help teach but it is best left to professionals

So instead of further blasting one another and the old guys and the hooka divers and the sky for being blue lets get back to being involved in the funnest sport in the world.

Thanks for listening!

 

[LadyIce]

Hi all,
Just from my experience. I have just recently been certified OW, back in July of this year. This was something the whole family wanted to do together ( four of us ). The cost wasn't cheap, considering we all needed the mask,fins...etc. What our instructor suggested was that we pay so much every couple of weeks, so maybe your son could do the same with a course. The part I think that is important when one takes a course ( if its a good instructor, which ours was ) The instructor knows if a person is acually ready to leave the pool and go out into the water. In our class there were 9 of us taking the course. Three of the people in the course never completed the OW check out when we did ours. The instructor held them back and worked with them until he felt they were ready to continue on. Two of the three have now completed their OW. The third which is my son hasn't yet completed his. The instructor still feels he's not ready. In my opinion find a good instructor, you may thank yourself in the end. I would go by my instructors feelings and vast knowledge of diving, before even thinking about taking my son out on a dive.

LadyIce