Diving Uncertified !!!!

[SpyderTek]

Originally posted by Liquid
SpyderTek,
I'm going to be blunt here, for several reasons, amongst them your assumption that all instructors are bad and worth nothing, it offends me, as an instructor.

Who the hell do you think you are to give such advices?
what kind of training have you gone through?
What kind of knowledge about the risks involved do you have?
If bobb had gone with the dive, and something went wrong, how would YOU feel!?
An instructor can see things that another diver will not. Doing anything without proper training, beside being danegerous leave you without insurance cover, for the case that something DOES go wrong.

WHOA! Hold on here Liquid. Im sorry if you got the impression that I was saying every (or even MY) instructor was bad and/or worthless. Instructors are very important to allot of people. What I was implying was that everyone learns best from different methods.

WARNING GROSSLY EXAGGERATED EXAMPLE: Some people, no matter how many times you show them, are incapable of learning to tie their shoe. These people aren't stupid. Give them the same exact directions written down, with a diagram, and a light goes on over their head and suddenly they can untangle the Gordian Knot!

As for what advice I gave? The advice I gave was that each person had to make these choices for themselves. Which I believe is a whole LOT better advice than telling people they are to ignorant and unevolved (as some where suggesting with Darwin comments. Or were those comments only suggesting that they just shouldn't be permitted to breed?) to make choices for themselves.

As for whom my instructor was; I do not wish to go into specifics but I am quite satisfied that his credentials placed him in the top 10 accredited instructors in the world even though his methods may have been wrong for me.

I would also like to point out that I was under the impression that Bob's 'Son' was an adult son and not a child son. I know this is a small difference but it does mean that two ADULTS are making a choice one way or the other for themselves. HOWEVER, as ScubaBaby pointed out, I failed to consider the fact that Bob's son would be less than ideal to assist in the event that Bob experienced difficulties. So that is indeed another factor for them to take into consideration.

-----

I gave A LOT of further thought to this topic since the thread started and came to some tentative conclusions.

1. Why are a majority of the dive community so quick to denounce any "unsanctioned" approach or thought about diving? The best answer I can think of is that Diving so far is a "self regulated" activity. Therefore, to maintain this classification, it is very important to be able to show any inquiring governmental agency that our behaviors / practices are not only high but probably more strict than anything they might impose. (I agree that the activity should be self regulated by the way and agree with the methods needed to ensure it remains so.)

2. Why does the idea of "Insurance Coverage" come up every time dive practices are discussed? Oh yeah, I forgot, we always have to make sure that if through my own action or inaction I hurt myself there is someone for me or my family to sue.

3. What about the "Resort Club Uncertified Diving" that takes place all around the world? How is this reconciled alongside the dive community's 'No unsanctioned / certified diving' policies? The only answer I can come up with is that we take a stance of hope and wishful thinking. That is to say we tell ourselves, "Well they are diving with a fully trained and certified instructor that will be there to cover any emergencies that arise." This is a fantasy. No way is a single person (usually a resort drifter who took the job on a 6 month contract so as to be able to spend paid time in a tropical local) leading 10 to 15 first time uncertified divers on rental equipment going to be the pinnacle of safety.

---

In closing, please know that I am not trying to insult anyone or even to offer my unqualified advice as to anyone's actions in or out of the sport of diving beyond "Be Smart and make informed choices". I was mearly stating an opinion for discussion purposess.

Peace.

SpyderTek

 

[gozumutti]

I started diving this year, 45 dives to date in all sorts of different environments, and I would not for an instant assume that I could possibly teach another person to dive. I even refuse to take my husband into freshwater, because he has only been in nice warm salt water til now. I will not take him into a cold and murky lake, because I know I do not have the skill to handle him if he should panic.

Get your boy scuba instruction, you will both not regret it.

gozu

 

[Lost Yooper]

Spydertek,

I think you'll probably get dumped on here, but I'll be the first to admit that I agree with most of what you said in your second post. In the end, people (adults) have to make their own choices and be prepared to live (or die) with them.

Mike

 

[Liquid]

Ok, Here I am, with only like a Dozen posts under his belt and I am going to make some very controversial statements that won't win me any friends but here goes..

You asked for it.

What is so hard about diving? An instructor cant teach you what to do during an emergency. An instructor can only TELL you what to do during an emergency. What you actually do is unknown until you actually HAVE an emergency. So does anyone recommend an instructor CAUSE an emergency (one that s/he is sure to be able to rescue you from) so as to teach you how to handle an emergency?

An instructor probobly has a lot of experience. Probobly more than your friend that finished his course, and is very smart and thinks he can teach you everything.
An instructor may have the PRACTICAL knowledge, that can never be described in books.

My $300 buck? What did they buy me? The PADI dive book and Video and 2 hours in the pool being rushed through exercises so fast as to not even notice I was underwater for a second. Then a multiple choice written test that compared to getting a driver's license was a walk in the park.

If that's the way your course went, you did have a lousy course, and your instrucot is the worst I ever heard of. This dosen't stand the standards of any agency, even PADI. The word "criminal" even comes to mind here.

I sincerely believe that I would be better qualified to scuba safely if my best friend were certified and rented the equipment and we spent a weekend in his pool together going real slow then going out to the local lake and taking my time getting used to the environment than I currently am having gone through a "Personal Executive training program".

Hm. and who is to say that your friend is good enough to teach scuba? him!?
Can he be sure that he really knows what he's talking about?
Can he be sure that he does everything corectly?
Can he know what kind of mistakes to look for in you?
Does he really know everything an instructor should know, and shuoldn't be alowed to teach without knowing?!

That's why there are instructor courses and instructors!

Lets face it, SCUBA isn't hard to do. Just hard to do WELL. And the only way to learn to do it well is through experience not "education" (so to speak.)

It's not too hard, but teaching scuba, while not qualified (and I dont mean just certified) for it is dangerouse.

To sum up: I AM NOT recommending anyone dive uncertified or to encourage someone to feel "safe" diving with you just because you are certified. Rather, use some sense. Know your ability and personality. Know your buddy's ability and personality. Know your "student's" ability and personality and take EVERYTHING very seriously (life and death here folks) and VERY Slowly.

You'r not recomending, after all you dont want any responsibility! you'r just implying, how nice of you.

Now let's get to your way more sensible second message:

WHOA! Hold on here Liquid. Im sorry if you got the impression that I was saying every (or even MY) instructor was bad and/or worthless. Instructors are very important to allot of people. What I was implying was that everyone learns best from different methods.

Your mesage did imply it, read the third paragraph of this message.

WARNING GROSSLY EXAGGERATED EXAMPLE: Some people, no matter how many times you show them, are incapable of learning to tie their shoe. These people aren't stupid. Give them the same exact directions written down, with a diagram, and a light goes on over their head and suddenly they can untangle the Gordian Knot!

That's why you have in a course, on every issue:
1- a book, which you are suposed to read and do the homework it has
2-a video that shows you, visualy everything.
3-an "academic" session, in which you discuss all the issues, and your instructor presents you with everything before you go to the water
4-every little thing is demonstrated by the instructor before you do it yourself also IN the water, first in the pool
5-You do it in the pool.
6-You do it in open water.

and in 5+6 you get to do all of the skills multiple times. So if one dosent understand the book, he has the video, than academic session and so on.

2. Why does the idea of "Insurance Coverage" come up every time dive practices are discussed? Oh yeah, I forgot, we always have to make sure that if through my own action or inaction I hurt myself there is someone for me or my family to sue.

For a very simple reason:
Do you have any idea how much a treatment in a hyperbarrac chamber costs? how much the medical treatment costs?
Alot.

3. What about the "Resort Club Uncertified Diving" that takes place all around the world? How is this reconciled alongside the dive community's 'No unsanctioned / certified diving' policies? The only answer I can come up with is that we take a stance of hope and wishful thinking. That is to say we tell ourselves, "Well they are diving with a fully trained and certified instructor that will be there to cover any emergencies that arise." This is a fantasy. No way is a single person (usually a resort drifter who took the job on a 6 month contract so as to be able to spend paid time in a tropical local) leading 10 to 15 first time uncertified divers on rental equipment going to be the pinnacle of safety.

I totaly agree with you on this one.Where I come from it is Illigal to do it. An instructor can take ONE person to an introductory dive, up to 6 meters deep, and controls all of the diver's equipment. The diver dosnt have to know a thing about scuba beside equalizing his ears.

To sum it,
I dont think you ment to insult anyone, rather you were a bit harsh. You have to have more experience, both in diving and instructing, to suggest such a thing. There is a reason for all the regulations, it's fairly simple- it's the least bad. If everything was completly free how many diving accidents do you think we would see arouond?

 

[kubefish]

i think if you practiced in the pool with your son
then took him on some shallow dives (20 feet or so) under the ideal conditions there shouldn't be a problem.
you don't get any real experience from a book. you need to go out and try. i think that a certified novice diver is more dangerous than (real time experienced) non certified diver. under ideal conditions you would have both book knowledge and experience.

i think i would be able to handle a situation better now ,after several hundred dives, than i would have when the book knowledge was fresh in my head.

you might find out that your kid thinks diving sucks. you might save yourself a few hundred bucks.

lets hear it?

 

[syruss32]

Here's to you liquid on a good response!

I know from experience that anyone can pretty much dive with little or no instruction. I did it as a kid to about 45 feet with a friend whose dad was certified. He said it is easy, just make sure to keep breathing and don't hold your breath.

It worked out fine I probably did 20-30 dives when I was 12-13 with him. But was I a safe diver, no. Was I a good buddy for him, no. This was in the old days before rigs had octo's so if there had been an emergency where say buddy breathing were needed would I have known to do it?

So many things can go wrong, and even if your instructor cant put you into a real experience they can teach you to think about them, and maybe in that time of need you will have a clue.

The solution to most problems underwater can be solved with good thinking and a solid partner, but if you don't have the basics down or some way to come up with a solution you are probably a corpse.

So in reality only a fool would dive without good instruction first, and I would never want them as my buddy.

'Course I am not sure I would want liquid as my buddy either, he's a bit on the strange side hehehehe

 

[socaldiver]

And, not to get too personal, I am curious. Is your son not in a financial position to pay for the training himself?

If it was my kids and they couldn't afford" it then good old pops would shell it out (if possible).

My oldest son got pissed at me last week overon Maui because he wanted me to rent gear for him to go diving with me. Not in your lifetime would I consider this an option. Have him go to a GOOD professional instructor. DO IT THE RIGHT WAY!!

 

[uwsince79]

Well as some of you know I have been here a little while. I do not post often, but do enjoy reading the wonderful topics that arise very much.
But I have just been compelled into writing by the last round of posts.
First off I will start by submitting these are my own opinions, and drawn on my own experiences. I do not advocate the teaching of scuba by anyone other than a qualified Instructor and under no way do I think, Instructor or not, do you have any business teaching with less than at least 300 dives under your belt and none of them double dipped in order to meet some qualification standard. (There are those of you out there that know what I mean)
Now I will not step on any agency. PADI, NAUI, TDI, IANTD, SSI, YMCA, etc. some of you in this environment have your own opinions about each but they are all good. Some better then others in certain areas but that is another topic. Many of you seem not to like PADI but the fact of the matter they are the biggest, while they were not the first (NAUI was) they have grown to an agency that teaches quite a few people to dive, and here comes my point.... Folks it is not the agency, it is the (and this is going to hurt some of you) instructors that cause the issues. Now you seem to have chastised the individuals looking to make a statement about learning to dive but is this not a direct reflection upon you the instructors? This is going to hurt some more, and not help this thread any, but I was taught by my farther when I was six years old. I did not become certified until I was 13 in 1979. I have (and I am not an instructor nor do I work in the industry although I am a member) almost 2000 dives logged and I cannot tell you how many I have not logged through the years. Was my farther a bad man? In 1956 he was taught by a friend and has been diving ever since. HE DID NOT BECOME CERTIFIED UNTIL 1985! I will blow his horn and I would bet a lot of money at his age he would make most of your instructors look like a bunch landlubbers, with over 10,000 dives to his credit and he is still diving he has seen the industry form nothing to what it is today! His opions are shared by me in that he did not feel the people teaching knew more than him so he pushed it off until he was left with no option but to become certified. I wish he was here to tell you about it. You would all get a good laugh. Our opion remains, if the instructors did a better job at instructing this post would be a mute topic, not one fueled by nasty language and bashing of an individual because he stated his opinion. Hell, I have my 6-year-old niece free diving to 45 FSW. She was swimming to the deep end of our pool by three. NO agency due to the liability would touch her in a certification. But as most in my family she will be in scuba in a year or two at the least. Now if something happens who is to blame? We all know the risk and we KNOW OUR ABILITIES. Are we bad because we have tought her? She will become certified as soon as she is ten but untill then... On a side note This country has become risk adverse. If something goes wrong there must be someone to blame, right. Hell instructors what the hell do you think your standards are for? To get you’re asses out of the legal trap of liability of course. Not to teach good diving, what are there 18 – 20 basic skills? Do you really think that those skills are hard to teach? No it’s the programming to rely on those skills that is the difference in teaching. Another thing do you really believe that most new OW divers are going to save someone? FLOKS they can just about dive they need to work on their skills, buoyancy, kicking styles, fine-tuning, OoA,etc. Throw in a problem or a few and you have a **** storm on your hands! I have been in a few rescues (REAL RESCUES) and they are ugly, lets not kid ourselves.
Do you want to know what makes a good instructor? A GOOD DIVER, and then someone who can teach on top of it. Now don’t not get me wrong I know all about cash flow and the almighty dollar, but with a little more caring and a change in the way some of you out there think, people will want to come in and LEARN from you neighborhood instructor. Diving is FUN, first and people want to see what’s under the water and have FUN while doing it. So what must you do explain that the $300.00 they spend is actually GETTING THEM SOMETHING, an education into diving. Allowing them to enter a world that knows no bounds, the last place on earth still unexplored….Is my point getting across?
It is you the instructors of the industry that need to be the spokespersons that will make people come to you and want to learn, not just be shoved through some class, just another number and into the sea you go…thinking, "What did I pay for?"

my rant dissolves in H20…….

 

[DivingGal]

Please, please, please get the proper training. I really don't care with what agency. But get it. As others have stated, this is your son's LIFE we're talking about -- and perhaps your own. The U/W world is a beautiful place, yet a very, very dangerous place - though through training, and experience we learn how to deal with the problems that may (and pray never) occur.

Sure a video may show you and a book may allow you to read about things --- but practical experience, and someone watching for those oh subtle mistakes....

Again I say, please get the proper training for you and your son. We all want you around to tell the tale of the wonderous sites you'll see, and not the tale of tragedy of what has/may happen.

 

[Lost Yooper]

I don't necessarily disagree with everything being said by the minority here -- which isn't unusual around here. I mean there has to be a devils advocate, right?

If I (repeat -- I) had a mature person, whom I trusted and respected, who wanted to try scuba, I'd do it. I wouldn't have done it when I had only 30 dives under my belt. I would do it now (and this will probably sound arrogant to some) because I know that I have equal or better diving skill and theoretical knowledge than most recreational instructors out there. It would be done in a formal manner, and I wouldn't miss any steps. People are kidding themselves if they believe this isn't happening all the time.

That being said, I would definately encourage getting certified, if for no other reason, than the convenience of being certified. I would also probably encourage the person to shoot for a cert. that would certify him for nitrox mixtures up to 100% O2 (and perhaps trimix) for the same reason stated above, AND so he could eventually join me in doing some nice dives. HOWEVER, rest assured that I would be right there throughout the process discrediting the BS that I believe/know will be taught in some of the classes and make sure he knows the rights and wrongs of mainstream diving theory and practice.

In the end, everyone has to evaluate their own level of risk they are willing to accept, and then take responsibility for the risk they have taken. Some people (unknowingly) choose to be trained by someone who has 500 dives to an average depth 40' in tropical waters -- whatever, I guess.

Good luck to all.

Mike