Diving instructors - low standards debate

[SaltyCracker]

@KatieMac
"Has he been diving with a computer that would have logged dives?"

Nope…

So no dive log and no computer. It's safe to say that he doesn't use dive tables either.
It doesn't sound like this situation should be blamed on instructors low standards. He should have his own standards.

 

[FishWatcher747]

If your friend has 70 dives like you have in 4 years, how hard would it be to write down in a notebook all of the dives he has done with you, 30 dives whatever, copied dates and depth as in your logbook. Then detail Cuba dive 1, whatever date , depth, thermal protection, dive time..

This does not seem hard. Recreational dives are not all that different from each other. It is not cheating, he actually did the dives. A logbook after certification dives is not generally signed off by a guide, DM, or Instructor.

The liveaboard wants his AOW which he did with PADI and is legit, and evidence of 50 dives. Just document them.

 

[dmaziuk]

The question is what are you going to do with the data? It’s a gimmick with little practical use in recreational diving.

Wouldn't it be nice if subsurface could fill in the dive site name from logged coordinates?

 

[chillyinCanada]

I wonder how much the location where the OP’s buddy did OW plays into the insufficient instruction.

Definitely! I've been diving in Cuba. It was long ago but I can't imagine that much has changed.

 

[chillyinCanada]

Most likely it did play a big role. Probably "fake" instructor.

He was probably a Cuban instructor, which is real enough in Cuba.

 

[chillyinCanada]

I too wonder if your buddy's certification is legit. If not, that's going to be a much bigger problem on liveaboards and other dive trips than the lack of a logbook.

It's interesting that, for whatever agency standards his training might have violated, it seems they gave him all the essential skills. Some might regard that as more important than checking all the procedural boxes.

He's got his AOW now so he's good with regard to certification.

 

[chillyinCanada]

I used to keep a detailed log up until about 500 dives. Now I just note date, location, and a few other details that depend on the dive. I teach and require logging course dives because standards say to do so. However, I show students how I prefer to log dives and why but let them decide how they want to do it after the class. In the OW class they use the log provided in the materials but after that, if they want to just use a notebook it's fine with me. As for when I travel, I've never been asked for a logbook since I started showing my Instructor or Tech Instructor cards.

I've never been asked to show my log book anywhere in the world, liveaboard or otherwise. 25+ years ago, I used to worry about it but no one ever cared. In the early days it was great for getting interesting stamps.

Nowadays, if I like their stamp(s), I get a piece of paper or my notebook.

 

[mac66]

Some personal comments....

1. If the OP's friend has 70 dives in he is more than likely competent. I wouldn't worry about him and in fact surprised that the OP would/should/could even question that. In other words, the OP should mind his own business. Seems like the OP is just projecting his own insecurity on his buddy or just yakking to hear himself talk...i.e a guy who has 60 dives in and claims to be a beginner. What he's really saying is "look at me, I think I know more than my buddy who's done 70 dives". Yeah okay, whatever.

2. Diving isn't rocket science, it is fairly easy to do. Back in the day people learned to dive without formal instruction. Most survived. Experience is the best teacher. I've forgotten most of what I've learned in books. I learn something new every time I dive.

3. Who checks dive logs? Can you dive without a dive log? Apparently you can because the "dive buddy" has 70+ dives in without one. I've never, ever been asked about a dive log. I'm old school, don't use a dive computer and keep a hand written dive log. I keep it not because it was suggested (or required?) but as notes for myself.

4. Some of us are occasional recreational divers. Yeah, it's not a lifestyle for us. We maybe don't own all of or even any equipment and maybe dive on vacation/cruises once or twice a year in warm water with a group/guide. Apparently that's good enough, and good enough is sometimes good enough. Don't really need dive tables, dive computers, logs or anything else for that mater in those circumstances.

 

[chillyinCanada]

Some personal comments....

1. If the OP's friend has 70 dives in he is more than likely competent. I wouldn't worry about him and in fact surprised that the OP would/should/could even question that. In other words, the OP should mind his own business. Seems like the OP is just projecting his own insecurity on his buddy or just yakking to hear himself talk...i.e a guy who has 60 dives in and claims to be a beginner. What he's really saying is "look at me, I think I know more than my buddy who's done 70 dives". Yeah okay, whatever.

2. Diving isn't rocket science, it is fairly easy to do. Back in the day people learned to dive without formal instruction. Most survived. Experience is the best teacher. I've forgotten most of what I've learned in books. I learn something new every time I dive.

3. Who checks dive logs? Can you dive without a dive log? Apparently you can because the "dive buddy" has 70+ dives in without one. I've never, ever been asked about a dive log. I'm old school, don't use a dive computer and keep a hand written dive log. I keep it not because it was suggested (or required?) but as notes for myself.

4. Some of us are occasional recreational divers. Yeah, it's not a lifestyle for us. We maybe don't own all of or even any equipment and maybe dive on vacation/cruises once or twice a year in warm water with a group/guide. Apparently that's good enough, and good enough is sometimes good enough. Don't really need dive tables, dive computers, logs or anything else for that mater in those circumstances.

OP and buddy want to go on a liveaboard together and that's why OP cares about buddy's dive log.

 

[Damselfish]

OP and buddy want to go on a liveaboard together and that's why OP cares about buddy's dive log.

Sounds like it is the LOB that possibly cares about the dive log, or at least that is what matters practically speaking.

If the person has a card from a recognized agency, sounds like they do, all good there.

If the person has enough dives to make the LOB happy, but no log, reconstruct one as best they can. It wouldn't be lying and wouldn't hurt to have something. People log in all sorts of different ways, some don't log at all, people rarely get them signed. No reason to get bent out of shape about the past here. But, find out what the LOB actually wants. Because really there is no such thing as proof, and I'm sure they know that. They also know dive count often doesn't have much relationship to competence, Asking someone to fill out and sign something to cover the dive op, followed by them deciding for themselves if someone can dive (and deciding what if anything to do about what they see) is pretty common.

If the person is basically a good diver but missing some skills or knowledge they should have, it would be good to fill in those areas through reading, a class, whatever. If they don't want to, and the OP isn't happy with the situation, then they shouldn't dive with them. Simple.