Diving instructors - low standards debate

[AnaCat]

This already exists. The Atmos Mission One does this, and I'm sure they aren't the first. I'd be shocked if Garmin didn't.

I’ll look at Atmos. Garmin has GPS but not that precise

 

[Edward3c]

I’ll look at Atmos. Garmin has GPS but not that precise

The question is what are you going to do with the data? It’s a gimmick with little practical use in recreational diving.

 

[GF99/99]

SDI does, and so does PADI. I'm sure they aren't alone. I also know this is routinely ignored by instructors...

PADI has a way to sign their online log book as well, iirc.

It's mentioned in the SSI Instructor Manual under "Record Keeping".

In the Standards (under Certification Procedures) it says: (emphasis mine)

Sorry maybe my wording was a little unclear. Obviously yes for the actual OW training the dives need to be logged and records kept for liability reasons to show proof of actual training and all details associated with the dive. Sorry I'm not familiar with SSI standards but I see in the PADI Instructor manual (the one I have is pretty old so maybe there is something more up to date) it stats "Maintain training completion records for each student diver/participant for seven years or longer (as required locally)." and I'm sure like you said SSI and others agencies have a very similar standard so yes I agree there needs to be "record keeping" of the course dives but it is simply just that, record keeping. But I have not actually seen anything that states that teaching your student to log there "fun dives" after the course is a core standards/requirement for the OW training to certify them. To me it would seem the only reason why during a course dives are logged is just that to log the course dives for "record keeping" for liability reasons. I know IANTD requires them to be keep for 10 years now.

But if this is this case that logging your dives is a standard and requirement to be an OW diver then I would assume most of use are violating our OW training as I never log dives anymore.

 

[Trace Malinowski]

In the mid-1990's, I trained my girlfriend, an optometrist, in Florida as a PDIC OW diver. We traveled to the Bahamas right after her course was completed. We went to Stuart Cove's because he was also a PDIC instructor.

The student kit that PDIC HQ sent me didn't have a temporary C-card, but I had Christine's entire training record. PDIC had a record printed onto the student folder of all class, pool & OW sessions with every skill to be graded in every class.

They wouldn't let her dive without a temporary card even though they could see her entire training progression and her scores. I offered to buy a PDIC student kit that they had in the shop just to fill out the temp card. They wouldn't sell me one. I was an employee of PDIC HQ at the time.

I called Dive Dive Dive and they made sure my experience diving with them was first rate. I was a repeat customer of Stuart Cove's, but never wet back. The agency violated their own standards by not including the temporary C-card. Instructors were required to use ALL of the materials in the kit.

 

[TMHeimer]

Sorry maybe my wording was a little unclear. Obviously yes for the actual OW training the dives need to be logged and records kept for liability reasons to show proof of actual training and all details associated with the dive. Sorry I'm not familiar with SSI standards but I see in the PADI Instructor manual (the one I have is pretty old so maybe there is something more up to date) it stats "Maintain training completion records for each student diver/participant for seven years or longer (as required locally)." and I'm sure like you said SSI and others agencies have a very similar standard so yes I agree there needs to be "record keeping" of the course dives but it is simply just that, record keeping. But I have not actually seen anything that states that teaching your student to log there "fun dives" after the course is a core standards/requirement for the OW training to certify them. To me it would seem the only reason why during a course dives are logged is just that to log the course dives for "record keeping" for liability reasons. I know IANTD requires them to be keep for 10 years now.

But if this is this case that logging your dives is a standard and requirement to be an OW diver then I would assume most of use are violating our OW training as I never log dives anymore.

I would not say you are violating your OW training by not logging any dives other than the required course ones-- as you said, for liability reasons. If you follow your computer, or use the old tables and pen & paper dive "profiles", that is all you need to do. How does writing this data down in a log book or putting it onto a computer spread sheet make you any safer?

 

[GF99/99]

I would not say you are violating your OW training by not logging any dives other than the required course ones-- as you said, for liability reasons. If you follow your computer, or use the old tables and pen & paper dive "profiles", that is all you need to do. How does writing this data down in a log book or putting it onto a computer spread sheet make you any safer?

Yup that is exactly my point.

I know that for "record keeping" yes during course your dives are recorded. But I don't know of an agency that has a standard that requires divers fill out a dive log and teaches this as part of the course curriculum. But maybe I am wrong, I am not a course director nor am I fully up to date on all the standards.

 

[Edward3c]

Sorry maybe my wording was a little unclear. Obviously yes for the actual OW training the dives need to be logged and records kept for liability reasons to show proof of actual training and all details associated with the dive. Sorry I'm not familiar with SSI standards but I see in the PADI Instructor manual (the one I have is pretty old so maybe there is something more up to date) it stats "Maintain training completion records for each student diver/participant for seven years or longer (as required locally)." and I'm sure like you said SSI and others agencies have a very similar standard so yes I agree there needs to be "record keeping" of the course dives but it is simply just that, record keeping. But I have not actually seen anything that states that teaching your student to log there "fun dives" after the course is a core standards/requirement for the OW training to certify them. To me it would seem the only reason why during a course dives are logged is just that to log the course dives for "record keeping" for liability reasons. I know IANTD requires them to be keep for 10 years now.

But if this is this case that logging your dives is a standard and requirement to be an OW diver then I would assume most of use are violating our OW training as I never log dives anymore.

What you’re talking about is the instructor’s requirement to keep records, not the student’s.

I’ve had students ask me to sign off a lesson, sometimes 2 years later. When I check my log they either were with a different instructor or they didn’t make the grade.

 

[boulderjohn]

For PADI, logging the dives in an OW course is absolutely part of the standards. Additionally, in the beginning of the log book is a two page section in which the instructor must sign off everything the student does during the course.

The records that the instructor is required to teach is something entirely different. The student keeps the logbook.

Once the course is over, the course is over. Neither PADI nor any other agency has any authority over what a certified diver does after certification.

 

[AnaCat]

Yup that is exactly my point.

I know that for "record keeping" yes during course your dives are recorded. But I don't know of an agency that has a standard that requires divers fill out a dive log and teaches this as part of the course curriculum. But maybe I am wrong, I am not a course director nor am I fully up to date on all the standards.

Ok, nerdy reply
PADI does not request but recommends diving logs. So it’s not an instruction, rather a best practice

At some point I will probably be very confident and know what weights I need depending on suit/ type of cylinder, fins etc. I will also know how I can best adjust for water temps. But since we‘re recreational divers and sometimes have long intervals in which we don’t dive I think this is a rather important tool we can use.

Now my question remains: if you don’t log your dives and don’t have them signed by the master diver/ instructor that accompanies us, then how can we prove to a LOA how many dives we have?
While all of them make test dives to see actual skill level, they also require proof that you have min 50 dives, and not by giving an declaration but actually seeing the logbook.
It was the case with the first 3 boats we contacted for request of offer for LOA this October.

thanks
Ana

 

[mcohen1021]

Point in case:
I did my first dive with some friend in Barbados 4 years ago and it was instant love.
I went to a PADI dive shop in Egypt and did my OWD the

Now in June 2021 I went again in Hurghada and did my AOW with my best friend and buddy, who has a similar number of dives.
He dived in many tropical paradises and was certified as OWD in Cuba.

Nobody ever taught him the basics, he did not study a book, he was only taught with practical dives and verbal instructions.

He never saw a log book until this June…

So, in 4 years of scuba, your best friend never saw you filling out your secret logbook?