Dives Where DIR fails?

[leadweight]

There have been many threads in the BC forum debating whether a BP & Wings is the best rig to use when diving singles, especially in warm water. Bob3 alluded to this concept with respect to photographers and warm water divers. I am not going to get into the specifics to avoid repeating that debate here.

I would have to agree with Bob3 in this respect.

It is also my general view that DIR is a bit too demanding and comprehensive for the recreational diver. It is one thing for a cave certified diver to want to dive the same rig (with a single) on a warm water trip. It is quite another to recommend the same setup to a recreational diver with no tech diving ambitions. That does not mean that a recreational diver may not choose to be DIR. But, for me that choice would get in the way, rather than enhance the diving experience.

Furthermore, I can't imagine diving without a computer in a no overhead, no deco stop enviornment.

 

[Hoppy]

MikeFerrara


I have been all over the CDG website and all I can say is as a UK diver the idea scares the c**p out of me !

Open water is bad enough over here sometimes, without trying some of the things these guys do.

I have the utmost respect for these barking mad people

Seriously though, I have read extensively about the WKPP teams explorations and while they are awesome I wonder how many of these people have been cave diving over here ?

Surely the more extreme conditions would push the DIR theory to new limits, or (god forgive me for saying) possibly point out some weaknesses ?

I AM NOT looking to start a war here folks , just as a very inexperienced diver posing a question to all you who have vast amounts of experience in this area.

Personally I am still trying to come to terms with what I have been taught and am leaning towards the long hose idea, which to me seems infinitely more sensible and practical. (I'm PADI taught, surpise surprise).

The discussion over fins etc goes over my head to be honest. I am sometimes left with the impression that some of the DIR stuff is hype to sell a certain companies gear ! Anyone want to comment on that one ?

Just to say to Seajay , I hope this weekend goes well, and PLEASE tell us how it went ?

I for one will be waiting with baited breath ! (but still blowing those tiny bubbles like I was taught)

Thanks again all for a stimulating thread.

Hoppy

 

[tinman]

Doof once bubbled...
So what would be the proper rig for the situation that SeaJay described? Stating that he's brainwashed is all well and good, but it hardly helps to identify a more appropriate alternative to the setup he chose.

...well put Doof. It is the illuminating not denegrating statements that keeps us all coming back here - well, most of us I guess!

I have benefitted from DIR and Non-DIR proponents; however, DIR would seem to have the lion's share of diving wisdom based on hard won experience. Let's keep the reasoned debate going, everyone can benefit. Park the egos at the door, we're all adults here, trying to safely enjoy a dangerous sport...

 

[Cave Diver]

Hoppy once bubbled...
The discussion over fins etc goes over my head to be honest. I am sometimes left with the impression that some of the DIR stuff is hype to sell a certain companies gear ! Anyone want to comment on that one ?

I'll jump in on this one. As anyone who has taken a DIRF class knows, or someone who has really read the book and paid attention, there is no specific brand of gear "required."

They set certain parmaters, or expectations of different pieces of gear. As long as the gear meets these requirements it doesn't matter what brand it is. For example, OMS just announced a line of "DIR Friendly" gear to compete with Halcyon.

Halcyon is an equipment manufacturer that was created just to address the some of the specific needs of DIR. That doesnt mean that the gear HAS to come from them, but the quality of stuff they produce is generally better.

Hope this helps

 

[Hoppy]

Explains a bit about Halcyon, I didnt mean to have a pop at them. Just that it seems that everytime you read about DIR their name appears as well.

I appreciate if the kit is of higher quality then fine.

You are quite right in your assumption, I havent read the book and not done a class. But hey , I only got so much money !

Can you get classes here in the UK ? What std of diver and how much experience should someone have before doing a dir-f ?

Hoppy

Oh , sooooooo much to learn :bonk:

 

[SeaJay]

DIR doesn't say "no computers."

Who told you that?

DIR says, and I quote, again out of the DIR-F manual, that "DIR discourages the use of computers."

Further reading shows why...

Many divers who use computers (and I'm sure you've seen them yourself) rely on their computer so much as to have no familiararity with their dive tables whatsoever. They have no clue how long they've got to safely be underwater. They use the computer instead of dive planning, and they have no idea what their pressure group is or their saturation level.

I'm not talking about "tech" divers here... I'm talking about no-deco diving... What most people would call, "recreational."

On the other hand, Decompression divers, when choosing a computer, are faced with problems that aren't apparent to the no-deco diver. There are all kinds of arguments currently about decompression alogarithms, bubble formation theories, and the like. Purchasing one kind of computer over another can mean radical differences in deco times... And that's assuming that you're diving some kind of Nitrox blend. (Such as air or O2 enriched air.) So the question then, really, is "which computer do you believe?" And, "Are any of them going to be able to be used when the dive gets serious and you start using Trimix or Triox or whatever?"

Now, imagine a decompression diver relying on a computer... Just doesn't seem prudent, does it? Especially if the computer's effectiveness is currently being questioned anyway?

But your point is made about the "recreational" diver, by which you mean, "non-deco" diver, right?

Well, this affects the non-deco diver as well... What if there's a failure? What if the computer doesn't work? What if medical science comes to the conclusion that the alogarithms used in that particular model are not sufficient? Then that diver is relying on a computer which may or may not be able to perform it's job correctly, for a whole slew of reasons.

That's why true understanding of dive tables and decompression theory, and proper training and dive planning are so crucial. DIR teaches divers to be able to "off the cuff" estimate their pressure group, their air consumption rates, and even their remaining air supply an uncanny accuracy. It's not impossible to do... You just need training for it. And when that happens, well... You use your knowlege and understanding and experience and training to ensure that you're diving safe... Even if your battery dies or your computer floods or your band breaks or whatever.

I like computers. I will use one. But that doesn't make me not DIR... That makes me redundant. I now have a primary source of information... My brain... And a secondary source of information... My computer. Not the other way around. Personally, I like the concept, since nitrogen narcosis is a reality, and it's nice to have a back-up.

But the key is to not use the computer as a crutch. Thus, DIR "discourages" the use of them. But choosing to dive with one doesn't make you non-DIR.

Who told you that?

 

[SeaJay]

The DIR-F book is available online. I think I paid around $20 for it. (What's that, like 12 pounds?)

I think you'd be pleasantly surprised that the DIR-F book sounds very much like the PADI Advanced Open Water manual. In DIRIII, the video, GI3 says, "If we could just get everyone to go over the first few pages of the PADI Open Water I manual, there'd be a whole lot less misunderstandings..."

However, the DIR-F book goes much further into detail as to WHY and WHAT brought them to that conclusion.

It's good stuff... Highly recommended.

And your comment about "the waters in the UK..." I hate to tell you this, but it's the same water.

And something tells me that the same ideas would still apply.

 

[leadweight]

Please provide a link to the dir-f book, Seajay.

On the fly nitrogen calcs would be a nice thing to learn.

Gotta go, Belize awaits.

 

[JeffAustin]

The computer is fine, until it locks up because it doesn't agree with your deco plans. That's when they let you down. Put it in gauge mode, plan your dives, folllow your plan.

 

[The Pirate]

SeaJay once bubbled...
I'm currently undergoing a DIR conversion. I take my DIR-F course next weekend in Atlanta.

... TWO giant leg knives, ... That day, all of my gear was DIR.

I suggest you think about this stmt again. Giant leg knives are not dir.

The Pirate