usil
Guest
Duncan your my new hero!!
Dives Where DIR fails?
- Thread starter Divesherpa
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Thanks Duncan.
Has anyone looked around the CDG web site? What do you think?
Has anyone looked around the CDG web site? What do you think?
100days-a-year
Contributor
Divesherpa,I said closer to DIR.As in we buddy up,dive with redundant tables,BT etc..7' hose,HPsteel or AL doubles when wet.Will never be 100% but get closer as we get closer to what DIR was designed for.Most of my buddies are full cave ,mix or at least Adv.Nitrox so DIR is well discussed among us but we only implement the tenets that we are able to incorperate into our diving.If I ever decide to get full cave I'll be diving as DIR as I can get.Did I clear that up?
SeaJay
Contributor
I'm currently undergoing a DIR conversion. I take my DIR-F course next weekend in Atlanta.
...But I'm already diving a Hogarthian rig. Simply put, when it came time to select my own gear, I started looking around... And the possibilities of gear configurations led me to DIR, which led me to the understanding of DIR as a whole, not just the gear configuration.
The reason that I felt it important to speak up here is this... I'm a Rescue Diver for my local Fire company.
...So I've got experience with exactly what you're speaking of... And I can tell you that many of the reasons that you're listing as "inappropriate for DIR" are exactly the opposite... Not only appropriate, but preferred by those of us who are doing the rescuing.
Case in point: I'd been called out for some dumbass who was loading his boat on it's trailer when the truck's e-brake gave out. The whole shebang went down the ramp and into the water. It even took the boat with it, as it was already tied to the trailer. Apparently the tongue weight alone sank the trailer and boat.
When I get there, the guy is amazingly calm. At this point, we suspect an insurance fraud scheme. But at the time, my biggest worry was that he couldn't tell me if there was anyone in the truck when it went down (it was like a panel truck, not a pickup truck.) He said he couldn't remember if his daughter was with him or not.
There's additional problems, too... Vis is nonexistent, (6" or so) and there's no tellin' if his truck or whatever is blocking the ramp or what. The whole thing could be way downstream by now. What was virtually no current when the rig sank is now a 3+ knot ripper. Furthermore, We have no visual signs of oil slick or anything telling us where the rig is.
To make matters worse, the water's a chilly 50 degrees, and we do not have a boat in the water. We know that the land after the landing breaks off sharply into a deeper part of the river, but we're unsure how deep. Experience in this area helps us to know, however, that we can expect a max depth of no more than 50 fsw or so.
I'm using fire company gear. I can choose anything. What do I choose?
7 foot hose, Halcyon SS bp, 9 lb STA, no weight, 3 mil suit (that's all we had that day... I'd have rather been diving dry due to the chilly water) and a single AL80. One light clipped to my right D-ring, SPG, 50 lb lift bag, spool clipped to back D-ring, TWO giant leg knives, Mares Quattro fins, and a wrist-mounted compass and depth guage.
That day, all of my gear was DIR. Sure, some could argue that the Quattros aren't "standard issue," but I needed a long, powerful fin for the heavy current. Of no concern was the possibility of "silting." The water was already silted. No split fins, please, I need the sheer torque and power, and the ability to easily use any fin kick I needed. Jet fins also would have been great, but I have found that I can get a little more power out of these in heavy current (although they don't have the stiff maneuverability that the Jets do). Some may argue, too, that the leg knives were not DIR either. DIR is not about doing your gear one way and only that way... It's about diving with what you need, and only what you need. Normally, I would have dove only with a belt-mounted knife. But these were used to stick into the muddy bottom so that I didn't get swept downstream. Think of them as "pegs" to go into the bottom. Both of them by the way, were mounted on the inside of my legs to prevent snags with my lines, which I was certainly going to be dealing with.
The 7 foot hose was desired for two reasons... First, my rescue victim, if I had one (and who likely wouldn't need it any more by now), was likely going to be in full-panic mode. As a Rescue Diver, my last desire is to come in physical contact with that person. I need to comfort them and help them without touching them, if possible. If they need my reg, then I need to have it as accessible as possible to give to them, and on the longest hose possible so that I can avoid being grabbed by them if possible. The 7 footer is great in a rescue situation. It allows me to keep my distance... Or to get them air while doing any tow I choose, in any position. The shorter hoses don't let me have as many options, and force me to physically touch the victim, which almost always involves them trying to literally climb up on top of my head, making rescue impossible. Amazingly, a panicked person almost never thinks of pulling you toward them by pulling on the hose... But they will definitely lunge at you. Heck, if I could swim with a 20' hose... Anyway, the second reason that I chose the 7 footer was because a short hose makes this huge loop over your right shoulder. The 7 footer tucks neatly behind your head and across your chest. Sure, it sounds like a pain, but it's great. It's streamlined, and won't vibrate in a heavy current like a short one will. Believe it or not, short hoses are more in the way than the long ones.
Zero vis means that your buddy is nonexistent. DIR teaches incredible buddy awareness, but there's simply no way of doing that in this water, so my buddy stayed up top to support with a line... And thus was DIR. (If that concept confuses you, before arguing with me, please read the DIR Fundementals book.)
I never even put air in my BC. I crawled into the water on my hands and knees, facing the current. I held a reel line in my hand to receive signals with (buddy was on the other end with instructions to let me have 75' and give me a a twice-tug) and with both leg knives drawn. Many people think that I should have had a whole bunch of weight to keep me on the bottom, but my rig was trimmed well. I found it easier to keep myself on the bottom with the DIR trimmed position... Legs up, fins up, placing some downforce on me to keep me submerged.
I went in to the water, stretched out 75', stayed on the bottom, and held myself in place with my knives. No point in the mask or the light, but I wanted them to search the interior of the vehicle for life when I got there, and I might need them at that time. Also, if there was a victim and he/she was still alive, likely it would be because they were trapped in a pocket of air inside the truck... Which would most definitely be very, very dark.
Once the line was tight and the signal given, I allowed myself to drift backwards slowly, until the line became parallel with the current. I then knifed my way (and swam some too) up to the snag point in the line... The vehicle. Four tugs on the line... I've reached the target. Tie off, Take out spool and use it to enter the vehicle, feeling for arms, legs, and hair. Luckily, there was nobody inside. No air pockets, either. Either she wasn't in the vehicle when it went down, or the body's already downstream. Luckily, most dead bodies float (especially the female ones), and nobody'd seen anything. To me, no body meant nobody was in that vehicle when it submerged. Whew.
At that point, I used the line from my buddy as a guide and knifed sidesways back up the landing. A tow truck had already been called, and my buddy brought to me the hook from the truck's winch. Check for max depth during dive... 38 feet. Cake.
Knife back down, bringing with me the heavy hook, but knowing that it would simply keep me on the bottom. Find the front of the vehicle, attach correctly, and get back out of the water.
There was lots of applause when the rig came out of the water... On it's side. Boat and trailer still attached. Owner didn't look too happy, though.
Anyway, my point is that I would not have felt as comfortable using a jacket in this case. It's extra material would have been a real problem in the current. My tank was an AL80, and a single. The 7 foot hose was very much a plus in this environment. And the lift bag, which I often need to mark the target, is held invisibly in the Halcyon backplate. Try that with your average BC.
The DIR system was completely appropriate for this dive, as it would be with any Search and Recovery or Rescue dive. Luckily, it didn't turn into a Rescue dive... But if it had, I'd have been prepared with a long hose and perfect trim and buoyancy. Surface problems that you think are there with this rig most definitely are not. The rig is stable and neutral, even at the surface because all of your weight is behind you. I prefer to weight and trim myself properly and forgo the use of ditchable weight in these situations... I can swim up any bladder problem, and there's nothing for a panic-stricken victim to pull off of me, causing sinking problems for them and buoyancy problems for me. Simple is beautiful, man.
I recommend the system... Especially when it comes to life or death, emergency situations, technical diving, caving, overhead, current, or any other dive.
As far as the whole spearfishing/suicide clip thing goes... It wouldn't surprise me if the makers of DIR allowed for the use of a specialized clip, specifically designed TO snag a part of the rig. The reason that DIR teaches against suicide clips is because they snag... And generally, that's bad. But if that's exactly what you're looking for it to do... Well, then you've found your piece of gear.
The idea is to dive with what you need, no more and no less. And that's just the equipment part of DIR, which is not even half the picture. DIR is much more than an equipment configuration.
...But I'm already diving a Hogarthian rig. Simply put, when it came time to select my own gear, I started looking around... And the possibilities of gear configurations led me to DIR, which led me to the understanding of DIR as a whole, not just the gear configuration.
The reason that I felt it important to speak up here is this... I'm a Rescue Diver for my local Fire company.
...So I've got experience with exactly what you're speaking of... And I can tell you that many of the reasons that you're listing as "inappropriate for DIR" are exactly the opposite... Not only appropriate, but preferred by those of us who are doing the rescuing.
Case in point: I'd been called out for some dumbass who was loading his boat on it's trailer when the truck's e-brake gave out. The whole shebang went down the ramp and into the water. It even took the boat with it, as it was already tied to the trailer. Apparently the tongue weight alone sank the trailer and boat.
When I get there, the guy is amazingly calm. At this point, we suspect an insurance fraud scheme. But at the time, my biggest worry was that he couldn't tell me if there was anyone in the truck when it went down (it was like a panel truck, not a pickup truck.) He said he couldn't remember if his daughter was with him or not.
There's additional problems, too... Vis is nonexistent, (6" or so) and there's no tellin' if his truck or whatever is blocking the ramp or what. The whole thing could be way downstream by now. What was virtually no current when the rig sank is now a 3+ knot ripper. Furthermore, We have no visual signs of oil slick or anything telling us where the rig is.
To make matters worse, the water's a chilly 50 degrees, and we do not have a boat in the water. We know that the land after the landing breaks off sharply into a deeper part of the river, but we're unsure how deep. Experience in this area helps us to know, however, that we can expect a max depth of no more than 50 fsw or so.
I'm using fire company gear. I can choose anything. What do I choose?
7 foot hose, Halcyon SS bp, 9 lb STA, no weight, 3 mil suit (that's all we had that day... I'd have rather been diving dry due to the chilly water) and a single AL80. One light clipped to my right D-ring, SPG, 50 lb lift bag, spool clipped to back D-ring, TWO giant leg knives, Mares Quattro fins, and a wrist-mounted compass and depth guage.
That day, all of my gear was DIR. Sure, some could argue that the Quattros aren't "standard issue," but I needed a long, powerful fin for the heavy current. Of no concern was the possibility of "silting." The water was already silted. No split fins, please, I need the sheer torque and power, and the ability to easily use any fin kick I needed. Jet fins also would have been great, but I have found that I can get a little more power out of these in heavy current (although they don't have the stiff maneuverability that the Jets do). Some may argue, too, that the leg knives were not DIR either. DIR is not about doing your gear one way and only that way... It's about diving with what you need, and only what you need. Normally, I would have dove only with a belt-mounted knife. But these were used to stick into the muddy bottom so that I didn't get swept downstream. Think of them as "pegs" to go into the bottom. Both of them by the way, were mounted on the inside of my legs to prevent snags with my lines, which I was certainly going to be dealing with.
The 7 foot hose was desired for two reasons... First, my rescue victim, if I had one (and who likely wouldn't need it any more by now), was likely going to be in full-panic mode. As a Rescue Diver, my last desire is to come in physical contact with that person. I need to comfort them and help them without touching them, if possible. If they need my reg, then I need to have it as accessible as possible to give to them, and on the longest hose possible so that I can avoid being grabbed by them if possible. The 7 footer is great in a rescue situation. It allows me to keep my distance... Or to get them air while doing any tow I choose, in any position. The shorter hoses don't let me have as many options, and force me to physically touch the victim, which almost always involves them trying to literally climb up on top of my head, making rescue impossible. Amazingly, a panicked person almost never thinks of pulling you toward them by pulling on the hose... But they will definitely lunge at you. Heck, if I could swim with a 20' hose... Anyway, the second reason that I chose the 7 footer was because a short hose makes this huge loop over your right shoulder. The 7 footer tucks neatly behind your head and across your chest. Sure, it sounds like a pain, but it's great. It's streamlined, and won't vibrate in a heavy current like a short one will. Believe it or not, short hoses are more in the way than the long ones.
Zero vis means that your buddy is nonexistent. DIR teaches incredible buddy awareness, but there's simply no way of doing that in this water, so my buddy stayed up top to support with a line... And thus was DIR. (If that concept confuses you, before arguing with me, please read the DIR Fundementals book.)
I never even put air in my BC. I crawled into the water on my hands and knees, facing the current. I held a reel line in my hand to receive signals with (buddy was on the other end with instructions to let me have 75' and give me a a twice-tug) and with both leg knives drawn. Many people think that I should have had a whole bunch of weight to keep me on the bottom, but my rig was trimmed well. I found it easier to keep myself on the bottom with the DIR trimmed position... Legs up, fins up, placing some downforce on me to keep me submerged.
I went in to the water, stretched out 75', stayed on the bottom, and held myself in place with my knives. No point in the mask or the light, but I wanted them to search the interior of the vehicle for life when I got there, and I might need them at that time. Also, if there was a victim and he/she was still alive, likely it would be because they were trapped in a pocket of air inside the truck... Which would most definitely be very, very dark.
Once the line was tight and the signal given, I allowed myself to drift backwards slowly, until the line became parallel with the current. I then knifed my way (and swam some too) up to the snag point in the line... The vehicle. Four tugs on the line... I've reached the target. Tie off, Take out spool and use it to enter the vehicle, feeling for arms, legs, and hair. Luckily, there was nobody inside. No air pockets, either. Either she wasn't in the vehicle when it went down, or the body's already downstream. Luckily, most dead bodies float (especially the female ones), and nobody'd seen anything. To me, no body meant nobody was in that vehicle when it submerged. Whew.
At that point, I used the line from my buddy as a guide and knifed sidesways back up the landing. A tow truck had already been called, and my buddy brought to me the hook from the truck's winch. Check for max depth during dive... 38 feet. Cake.
Knife back down, bringing with me the heavy hook, but knowing that it would simply keep me on the bottom. Find the front of the vehicle, attach correctly, and get back out of the water.
There was lots of applause when the rig came out of the water... On it's side. Boat and trailer still attached. Owner didn't look too happy, though.
Anyway, my point is that I would not have felt as comfortable using a jacket in this case. It's extra material would have been a real problem in the current. My tank was an AL80, and a single. The 7 foot hose was very much a plus in this environment. And the lift bag, which I often need to mark the target, is held invisibly in the Halcyon backplate. Try that with your average BC.
The DIR system was completely appropriate for this dive, as it would be with any Search and Recovery or Rescue dive. Luckily, it didn't turn into a Rescue dive... But if it had, I'd have been prepared with a long hose and perfect trim and buoyancy. Surface problems that you think are there with this rig most definitely are not. The rig is stable and neutral, even at the surface because all of your weight is behind you. I prefer to weight and trim myself properly and forgo the use of ditchable weight in these situations... I can swim up any bladder problem, and there's nothing for a panic-stricken victim to pull off of me, causing sinking problems for them and buoyancy problems for me. Simple is beautiful, man.
I recommend the system... Especially when it comes to life or death, emergency situations, technical diving, caving, overhead, current, or any other dive.
As far as the whole spearfishing/suicide clip thing goes... It wouldn't surprise me if the makers of DIR allowed for the use of a specialized clip, specifically designed TO snag a part of the rig. The reason that DIR teaches against suicide clips is because they snag... And generally, that's bad. But if that's exactly what you're looking for it to do... Well, then you've found your piece of gear.
The idea is to dive with what you need, no more and no less. And that's just the equipment part of DIR, which is not even half the picture. DIR is much more than an equipment configuration.
Waterborne
Contributor
OP
Seajay, I have to disagree with you. I was a rescue swimmer in the military (among other things), so I'm not speaking from lack of experience.
Your ability to add and subtract what you want makes it un-DIR. Two leg knives make your rig un-DIR.
Hogarthian is great for many applications. Getting rolled in a hydraulic on a river run is not one of those places. Maybe it will work in parts of South Carolina.
I hope it works for you and good luck in your pursuits. Also, you don't get DIR from reading on the net and diving Hogarth. Take cave III and you will begin to understand.
Cheers and thanks for helping mankind!
Your ability to add and subtract what you want makes it un-DIR. Two leg knives make your rig un-DIR.
Hogarthian is great for many applications. Getting rolled in a hydraulic on a river run is not one of those places. Maybe it will work in parts of South Carolina.
I hope it works for you and good luck in your pursuits. Also, you don't get DIR from reading on the net and diving Hogarth. Take cave III and you will begin to understand.
Cheers and thanks for helping mankind!
SeaJay
Contributor
That's not how I read the DIR manual. In fact, I'll quote: "Most divers do not need a large, ungainly knife attached to their leg." That comes straight from the DIR-F manual.
Notice that he says "most."
With all due respect to your Rescue Swimmer abilities, where were you taught that DIR meant one rig and one rig only? The whole point to the equipment side of DIR training is the modular rig that allows you to add and subtract from the rig without having to change your core equipment.
I'll talk to Andrew this weekend, as I'm taking his class. My bet is that he'll agree with the DIR philosophy of "Take all that you need and leave behind all that you don't." My bet is that he'll agree that some sort of holding device was appropriate in this water for this dive, and he'll agree that a BFK would have done the job. He'll probably also have some other suggestions as well.
We'll see.
Hmmmm... Have you ever dove one of these rigs? I can't imagine that anyone who's dived one of these rigs wouldn't see and feel immediately the advantages in the rig.
So you're saying that a HUB system would have been more appropriate? A jacket style BC? A back inflate? An AT Pak? No BC at all?
From a standpoint of being in the water that day, responsible for the rescue, and in heavy current with zero vis, I respectfully disagree. It's the rig I chose... And I could have chosen from many different things that day.
I'm fully aware of the way to "get DIR." I'll give you a full review of the Fundementals class after this weekend. As of now, I've only watched all the videos, read all of the "basics" books, and dived several different rig configurations... Including DIR on many dives. Oh yeah... I've done about a dozen dives with DIR divers, too, so I'm learning a lot.
My point is that while I might not be the resident expert on DIR, I certainly am learning... And to say that I have no knowlege whatsoever is as incorrect as saying that I know it all. I find your insinuation that I "got DIR" from "reading on the net" pretty insulting. You might want to check the archives, there, bud.
Are you claiming to be DIR? You certainly sound like it with your condescending tone. And yet, your ideas on what DIR is directly contradicts what I know of DIR thus far...
OP
SeaJay
Contributor
Hm.
Well, what else can I say but "thanks?"
I promise to keep my mind open. I'll post a full review of DIR-F when I get back on Monday.
Thanks for not letting our discussion get "out of hand." :mean: I appreciate you making that clear. It was pretty easy to get pretty insulted pretty quickly, and I was smellin' a flame war that I really wasn't looking forward to.
I promise.
I'll keep your suggestions in mind, and keep a special eye out for them. Thanks for the heads up.
Well, what else can I say but "thanks?"
I promise to keep my mind open. I'll post a full review of DIR-F when I get back on Monday.
Thanks for not letting our discussion get "out of hand." :mean: I appreciate you making that clear. It was pretty easy to get pretty insulted pretty quickly, and I was smellin' a flame war that I really wasn't looking forward to.
I promise.
I'll keep your suggestions in mind, and keep a special eye out for them. Thanks for the heads up.
Doof
Contributor
So what would be the proper rig for the situation that SeaJay described? Stating that he's brainwashed is all well and good, but it hardly helps to identify a more appropriate alternative to the setup he chose.
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