Dives and dive time

[rivers]

I've been reading this thread from the beginning and debating whether or not I should jump in with an opinion. After reading the thread, I've come to the conclusion that both parties are at fault in some way, shape, or form.
The OP should have listened to and followed the dive plan as per the DM, and not exceed max depths etc. Even if it a DM or guide making the plan, it is the plan to be followed, unless it was discussed with the shop/DM prior to the dive that you would not be following them, and doing your own dive. But this was clearly not the case, and the OP and buddy are at fault for nearing/going into deco (I'm still not clear on this... from the sounds of it, the OP's buddy went into deco and had a mandatory stop. Please correct me if I misunderstood). If it were a dive time of 45 minutes, then you have 45 minutes to get your butt back into the boat, I'm sorry. That includes safety stops. If you saw that you and your buddy were getting close to NDL limits, why did you not ascend earlier and maybe spend some time 10-15ft above the rest of the group?
While the dive plan may have been set out by a dive professional, it is still your responsibility to follow it. You are responsible for you underwater (and out funnily enough), so take responsibility. It is not the DMs job to baby-sit, and I have been out on boats where they have had to. If I have an insta-buddy, I am not afraid to ask to see their computer to see what they have left for NDL and compare it against mine. We go with the more conservative computer. So, if your buddy entered deco, neither of you were paying attention to his computer.
Was the DM right in the way he treated you? No, he shouldn't have gotten angry (not in front of other customers anyway), but at the same time I can see why he did. You and your buddy made quite a few mistakes during the dives. You blatantly disregarded the agreed upon plan, violated max depths, violated computers, and violated the dive times. If you needed a 5 minute deco (which shouldn't have happened) or wanted the 3 minute safety stop (which i don't blame you for) at 40-42 minutes, you should have been at 15-20 ft doing your stops, not starting them at 45 minutes.

 

[Blackwood]

It is my observation through the years and with having been on so many dive trips all over the world (I used to do 8 - 10 trips a year), I rarely saw divers/tourists do a dive plan.

Interesting, but in fairness, it's not always something you can see. It could just be two people chatting. It doesn't have to be detailed. I know that on a NDL profile to 90 feet, I want about 6 minutes to ascend. So if I'm told to be back in 35 minutes, I'll plan to leave the bottom no later than 29 (assume for the sake of discussion I'm on 32%), and with ~30CF of gas. That's a sufficient plan, and my buddy and I could make and agree upon it rather quickly with a nondescript discussion.

I have NEVER seen a dive leader chew somebody's behind because that person chose to do what is called by most a "SAFETY" stop. It just doesn't make sense. I believe that short of a life threatening situation or a real disaster that would befall the boat (which doesn’t appear the case here), diver leaders always encourage their divers to do these "SAFETY" stops.

Except this dive op specifically instructed them not to, which suggests to me they have a reason for it. If one wants to do a safety stop, one should plan for it within the confines of the briefing.

One can always argue the OP should have done this or that but, again, are dive leaders on tourist boat there to score points with their customers or are they there to make sure that the tourists are safe and have good time for these tourists to return to dive with them again??

Depends on the local. Here in CA, we don't really have dive leaders to speak of. The DM briefs divers about the sites and any boat-specific instructions, but doesn't get in the water unless something happens. In Cozumel, the DM is purportedly there to protect the environment. In other places, I suppose the DM is there to make sure the divers are safe, have a good time, etc..

I believe that a dive leader who loses his temper or starts to unleash his/her anger on his clients should just retire and find a different job.

I don't know if I'd go that far. We all have those days. I have no interest in being a dive professional because I don't have the patience for it, and it wouldn't be fair to my clients. Clearly the DM was in the wrong here too. Cussing at your customer is never called for.

I'm not sure whether the point of this thread was to discuss safety stops, surface intervals, decompression, the DM, a 6 year old diver, or what.

 

[BoltSnap]

But we are talking about 3 - 5 minutes here. People would spend that much time hanging out on the surface waiting their turn to get on the boat.

One other issue to consider, is the bottom time set by the DM a total dive time for the diver to be back on the boat inclusive of the precautionary stops? One can argue that once the divers are at their precautionary stop depth and doing their stop, that is the end of the dive and no one can fault them for that ESPECIALLY when we are talking about 3- 5 minutes here.

 

[Blackwood]

But we are talking about 3 - 5 minutes here.

It's pretty silly if it's about schedule. If it's something else (like everyone surfacing together for logistics and/or safety), that's different.

One other issue to consider, is the bottom time set by the DM a total dive time for the diver to be back on the boat inclusive of the precautionary stops?

It's total runtime since they were unequivocally told "when I give you the signal to get out of the water you need to do it then."

Maybe they weren't briefed about the maximum dive time, which would make the appropriate planning impossible. If that's the case, shame on the DM (for the oversight) and the divers (for not asking).

I know I'd immediately ask what the maximum runtime is if someone said "you must get out of the water when I tell you to."

 

[rivers]

But we are talking about 3 - 5 minutes here. People would spend that much time hanging out on the surface waiting their turn on the boat.

One other issue to consider, is the bottom time set by the DM a total dive time for the diver to be back on the boat inclusive of the precautionary stops? One can argue that once the divers are at their precautionary stop depth and doing their stop, that is the end of the dive and no one can fault them for that ESPECIALLY when we are talking about 3- 5 minutes here.

I've been on boats where the DM/boat captain/crew has said, "Guys please be back on the boat in 40 minutes" so if the DM said that they needed to be back on the boat in 45 minutes, I would consider that 45 minutes to be inclusive of the safety stop.
There may have very well been a reason why the DM was adamant about being on the boat in 45 minutes. They may have had another boat going out that they needed to get it back for, they could have had a private charter, maybe there was only one dock and several ops used it and each had a specific unloading/loading time, there could have been a storm coming in from nowhere. The point is, we don't know and sometimes that 3-5 minutes can make all the difference.

 

[BoltSnap]

Interesting, but in fairness, it's not always something you can see. It could just be two people chatting. It doesn't have to be detailed. I know that on a NDL profile to 90 feet, I want about 6 minutes to ascend. So if I'm told to be back in 35 minutes, I'll plan to leave the bottom no later than 29 (assume for the sake of discussion I'm on 32%), and with ~30CF of gas. That's a sufficient plan, and my buddy and I could make and agree upon it rather quickly with a nondescript discussion.

You are right overall. I am speaking based on my being close to all divers as is the case on liveaboards and in small groups on day boats and/or doing shore dives. I am the type of person who is talking to everyone in the group and making friends with all of them. My point is anecdotal based on my personal observations. But also I am frequenting dive destinations and/or operations that don't macro manage their customers in the most part.

Except this dive op specifically instructed them not to, which suggests to me they have a reason for it. If one wants to do a safety stop, one should plan for it within the confines of the briefing.

Yes, the DM is rushing to go to the bar or to meet his girlfriend Again, we are talking about 3 – 5 minutes here. I would have had a different opinion and attitude should the stop time been much longer.

Depends on the local. Here in CA, we don't really have dive leaders to speak of. The DM briefs divers about the sites and any boat-specific instructions, but doesn't get in the water unless something happens. In Cozumel, the DM is purportedly there to protect the environment. In other places, I suppose the DM is there to make sure the divers are safe, have a good time, etc..

This is the case in the North East. The boat is a taxi that takes you to/from the dive site(s). They give a briefing about the site and checks you in/out of the water and that’s it. They don’t macro manage you, however, as they did in the OP’s story.

I don't know if I'd go that far. We all have those days. I have no interest in being a dive professional because I don't have the patience for it, and it wouldn't be fair to my clients. Clearly the DM was in the wrong here too. Cussing at your customer is never called for.

Some people are just burned out and become a liability for their bosses. They need time off or leave for good. A diver leader needs to know when to be assertive, strict and demanding and when to be a counselor and a “friend.” It is not always glamorous or pretty as some folks think it is.

BTW, thank you for your feedback and friendly discussion. You made some very good points!!

Safe Diving!

 

[BoltSnap]

I've been on boats where the DM/boat captain/crew has said, "Guys please be back on the boat in 40 minutes" so if the DM said that they needed to be back on the boat in 45 minutes, I would consider that 45 minutes to be inclusive of the safety stop.
There may have very well been a reason why the DM was adamant about being on the boat in 45 minutes. They may have had another boat going out that they needed to get it back for, they could have had a private charter, maybe there was only one dock and several ops used it and each had a specific unloading/loading time, there could have been a storm coming in from nowhere. The point is, we don't know and sometimes that 3-5 minutes can make all the difference.

You are right to the extent that we really don't know the other side of the story. It is all speculation. The DM may have had a real legitimate reason and had we known it we would have been on his side 100% or he was just trying to rush back to the dock to meet his girlfriend to go play miniature golf.

 

[UCFKnightDiver]

What is all this about follow the dm, get out of the water when they say etc. When I dive on a boat, I plan my dive with my team and we come up when we've reached an agreed upon gas level.

Now don't get me wrong I think the op screwed up with a deco obligation and such but... for all those who are saying "the dm probably got mad when he wouldn't come up when he told him" sorry but I'm not there to follow the DM I'm there to do my dive within reason, obviously if I'm sitting there with doubles on the boat it's different but for a single tank or other extenuating circumstances...

 

[Blackwood]

What is all this about follow the dm, get out of the water when they say etc. When I dive on a boat, I plan my dive with my team and we come up when we've reached an agreed upon gas level.

Running your own profile and dive plan is all well and good if you've cleared it with the dive op. It's certainly my preference. Of course, since they own the liability, they're within their rights to deny you.

 

[BoltSnap]

What is all this about follow the dm, get out of the water when they say etc. When I dive on a boat, I plan my dive with my team and we come up when we've reached an agreed upon gas level.

Now don't get me wrong I think the op screwed up with a deco obligation and such but... for all those who are saying "the dm probably got mad when he wouldn't come up when he told him" sorry but I'm not there to follow the DM I'm there to do my dive within reason, obviously if I'm sitting there with doubles on the boat it's different but for a single tank or other extenuating circumstances...

You are describing the type of diving and dive operations I'd do and dive with but I get that clarified before I go on their boat. There are dive operations where they do the "choo-choo train" type of diving and that's the only they would do it but I won't book a dive with these types.