DevonDiver
N/A
By the way.... did we ever get an explanation of why the DM actually got them to abort the safety stop? Did the DM explain that during his 'rant' on the boat afterwards?
Dives and dive time
- Thread starter snturner
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Blackwood
Contributor
I don't think the OP is still participating in this thread, so here's more speculation based on what we have been told
:If anywhere, it was probably in the pre-dive briefing right about the time this was stated "when I give you the signal to get out of the water you need to do it then, don't be pretending to look at your computer and ignore me".
The post-dive rant more was more likely fallout from this attitude: "I couldn't believe he said that but didn't care," coupled with an overall lack of following directions (max depth, etc.).
DevonDiver
N/A
Well, I just hope the DM's lunch didn't get cold
Blackwood
Contributor
He was probably more worried about losing tips for getting a late start on the next charter.
Yes I am still here. I had a death in the family so I am out of town.
One of my posts was deleted. Which answered some of your questions.
Look here are some of the facts. If I type them all it would take me hours.
I SCREWED UP. I DO NOT BLAME THE DM FOR THAT.
My buddy and I needed to do some kind of safety stop and or deco stop. In my opinion the first dive to over 90 feet should have a safety stop also. On the first dive the DM and several choose to surface and get out without any kind of stop. My buddy and I, with 3 other divers choose to hang out at 20 feet. It may have saved us for the second dive.
My computer was not rented, my dive buddy told me his was.
The reason I refer to dive tables is too simplify the issue. In your basic scuba class you were not given all kind of information about a dive. You where given depth, dive time and maybe a surface group. Then you were asked to figure out repetitive dives. You don't get anything about current, water temperature or anything else.
If you do that with my information you will see the second dive falls into a deco dive. My point is I figured that out during the dive. I decided to extend my safety stop/deco stop to release some gas. I knew my dive buddy was not educated enough and was doing whatever I was doing. I considered his safety my responsibility, since the DM was not paying attention.
I should have stayed on the bottom (15 feet) not matter upset the DM was getting.
in my opinion everyone on this dive should have done some kind of safety stop.
My point about one of the guys working on the boat who stated he has been diving since he was 6, was this is someone who ignored the fact that he is not old enough to be diving and is a unsafe diver. The same diver mentioned that he has completed dives to 380 feet on compressed air and said he doesn't need that mixed gas stuff. Interesting no one on here has commented on that. These are red flags to me, just because this is someone we are all expecting to guide us on a dive. It's just my opinion, kind of like how some of you are labeling me an idiot based on this topic.
A lot of you have mentioned dive plans. Just my observation, but on all the dive boats I have been on, I have seen one person over the years actually planning the dive.
With all that said, I am done with this topic. I am not going to argue about this with anyone else.
One of my posts was deleted. Which answered some of your questions.
Look here are some of the facts. If I type them all it would take me hours.
I SCREWED UP. I DO NOT BLAME THE DM FOR THAT.
My buddy and I needed to do some kind of safety stop and or deco stop. In my opinion the first dive to over 90 feet should have a safety stop also. On the first dive the DM and several choose to surface and get out without any kind of stop. My buddy and I, with 3 other divers choose to hang out at 20 feet. It may have saved us for the second dive.
My computer was not rented, my dive buddy told me his was.
The reason I refer to dive tables is too simplify the issue. In your basic scuba class you were not given all kind of information about a dive. You where given depth, dive time and maybe a surface group. Then you were asked to figure out repetitive dives. You don't get anything about current, water temperature or anything else.
If you do that with my information you will see the second dive falls into a deco dive. My point is I figured that out during the dive. I decided to extend my safety stop/deco stop to release some gas. I knew my dive buddy was not educated enough and was doing whatever I was doing. I considered his safety my responsibility, since the DM was not paying attention.
I should have stayed on the bottom (15 feet) not matter upset the DM was getting.
in my opinion everyone on this dive should have done some kind of safety stop.
My point about one of the guys working on the boat who stated he has been diving since he was 6, was this is someone who ignored the fact that he is not old enough to be diving and is a unsafe diver. The same diver mentioned that he has completed dives to 380 feet on compressed air and said he doesn't need that mixed gas stuff. Interesting no one on here has commented on that. These are red flags to me, just because this is someone we are all expecting to guide us on a dive. It's just my opinion, kind of like how some of you are labeling me an idiot based on this topic.
A lot of you have mentioned dive plans. Just my observation, but on all the dive boats I have been on, I have seen one person over the years actually planning the dive.
With all that said, I am done with this topic. I am not going to argue about this with anyone else.
Blackwood
Contributor
My condolences. Very sorry to hear that.
That one person was not you, clearly.
Yours is highly different than my experience, but then I don't dive much outside of my area.
I think a good lesson is: take responsibility for your own dive plans, especially if don't know a lick of beans about the professionals tasked with doing it for you. If you're told to surface after 45 minutes, plan for it.
Was he the guide?
He did say we would get hit by the boat.
In my opinion, the divers on the surface are more likely to be hit than someone 15 feet underwater, laying on the bottom. I guess if he hit us he would be running the boat up on the sand and dead coral. we were laying on.
He also stated that everyone else was using computers and none of them needed a safety stop. Three other divers where using computers. None of them said anything. At least anything that I could understand. They were French Canadian and were saying a lot while they checked their computers.
OK, I have been waiting since before post #13 to do MY speculation, but the wait is over!
The boat I have worked on for the past few years does set profiles for all our dives; here is what I see as a likely scenario;
If we do a first dive with a max depth of 80' the dive time is 35 minutes on the guides timer. At 35 minutes the guide has the group near the ascent line and gives the ascend signal. With few exceptions, the group can surface in ~5 minutes.
We plan on a 45 minute surface interval and then the second dive is planned for 60' max depth up to 60 minutes on the guides timer. For both dives we tell customers that if the want a few more minutes descend a little before the guide.
We also recommend guests not "go deep" right away and not spend the majority of the dive at deepest depth; there is typically reef to explore around the mooring that is 15-30 feet deep. We start with the deep part and work our way shallower, often spending much more than 3 minutes shallower than 20 feet deep at the end of the dive.
All the guides use Suunto computers and all the rental computers are Suunto computers and with these very conservative computers, if you do not follow the plan you can get a mandatory stop by the end of the second dive. Part of the plan is to move shallower if your NDL goes below 5 minutes.
I think it likely that the OP dropped a little early, violated the planned max depth on the first dive and did not dive at the same depth as the guide at the end of the dive. That is why the guide did not need a SS; he had been diving at SS depth for the last 5 minutes of the dive, as explained in the plan (no deeper than guide) the guest should not have needed a stop because the guest should have already done it.
Everyone else likely had a 40+ minute SI, only the OP and inst buddy had the short SI.
So, since the OP was not listening/comprehending the briefings/plan the DM tried one last time to communicate that 45 minutes was the surfacing time on the second dive.
I think it is likely the insta buddy could have posted in the "insta buddy nightmare" thread about the crazy Cannuk who bent his computer and caused him to not get to do the afternoon trip.
I have never been in the Business to Business forum but the operator may be posting there in the "clueless customer from hell" thread.
The boat I have worked on for the past few years does set profiles for all our dives; here is what I see as a likely scenario;
If we do a first dive with a max depth of 80' the dive time is 35 minutes on the guides timer. At 35 minutes the guide has the group near the ascent line and gives the ascend signal. With few exceptions, the group can surface in ~5 minutes.
We plan on a 45 minute surface interval and then the second dive is planned for 60' max depth up to 60 minutes on the guides timer. For both dives we tell customers that if the want a few more minutes descend a little before the guide.
We also recommend guests not "go deep" right away and not spend the majority of the dive at deepest depth; there is typically reef to explore around the mooring that is 15-30 feet deep. We start with the deep part and work our way shallower, often spending much more than 3 minutes shallower than 20 feet deep at the end of the dive.
All the guides use Suunto computers and all the rental computers are Suunto computers and with these very conservative computers, if you do not follow the plan you can get a mandatory stop by the end of the second dive. Part of the plan is to move shallower if your NDL goes below 5 minutes.
I think it likely that the OP dropped a little early, violated the planned max depth on the first dive and did not dive at the same depth as the guide at the end of the dive. That is why the guide did not need a SS; he had been diving at SS depth for the last 5 minutes of the dive, as explained in the plan (no deeper than guide) the guest should not have needed a stop because the guest should have already done it.
Everyone else likely had a 40+ minute SI, only the OP and inst buddy had the short SI.
So, since the OP was not listening/comprehending the briefings/plan the DM tried one last time to communicate that 45 minutes was the surfacing time on the second dive.
I think it is likely the insta buddy could have posted in the "insta buddy nightmare" thread about the crazy Cannuk who bent his computer and caused him to not get to do the afternoon trip.
I have never been in the Business to Business forum but the operator may be posting there in the "clueless customer from hell" thread.
Blackwood
Contributor
If the captain is expecting the group to surface together, it's not unimaginable that two separate divers could be hit if the boat needs to be repositioned, etc..
I don't like being lead or having someone dictate my profiles, but I do listen to and heed briefings. If it's stressed that everyone needs to surface together, there's likely a good reason for it.
It is my observation through the years and with having been on so many dive trips all over the world (I used to do 8 - 10 trips a year), I rarely saw divers/tourists do a dive plan. Most of them went with the flow. The only dive planning they did, if any, was to come back on the boat with the usual 500PSI. One can argue that some of these folks were couples who are used to dive together and had their own routine but they are also typical vacation divers that should review their dive plan in a new location anyways but usually don't.
I have NEVER seen a dive leader chew somebody's behind because that person chose to do what is called by most a "SAFETY" stop. It just doesn't make sense. I believe that short of a life threatening situation or a real disaster that would befall the boat (which doesn’t appear the case here), diver leaders always encourage their divers to do these "SAFETY" stops. As it would appear that these same "SAFETY" stops are some of the best things we can do as divers to reduce our chances of getting DCS according to all of the literature I read and the dive medicine training/seminars I have attended over the last 20 years or so.
Yes, the OP screwed up to some extent and went deeper than he should have, but given all the facts and the type of mistakes others do as I have seen them over the years, it is not the end of the world. I am sure that this dive leader (as other DM’s and instructors who work in dive destinations) have seen far worse really stupid and borderline suicidal acts but I don’t think that this OP’s behavior comes even close. We can dissect everything the OP did or didn’t do right in this particular story but I don’t think that he is the worst guy still. He did something not quite right but he still had the common sense to do something that is really good for him and his buddy (precautionary stop). The DM could have used this whole scenario much more effectively to get his point across, teach his clients a lesson that would benefit them for the rest of their dive career and he would still come out as a caring professional had he acted with tact and diplomacy. One can always argue the OP should have done this or that but, again, are dive leaders on tourist boat there to score points with their customers or are they there to make sure that the tourists are safe and have good time for these tourists to return to dive with them again??
I believe that a dive leader who loses his temper or starts to unleash his/her anger on his clients should just retire and find a different job. No one is perfect and no one will follow ALL directions all the time. We have to do the best we can do with what we have and still keep a smile on our face as if we are enjoying what we are doing even when we are not.
Safe Diving!!
I have NEVER seen a dive leader chew somebody's behind because that person chose to do what is called by most a "SAFETY" stop. It just doesn't make sense. I believe that short of a life threatening situation or a real disaster that would befall the boat (which doesn’t appear the case here), diver leaders always encourage their divers to do these "SAFETY" stops. As it would appear that these same "SAFETY" stops are some of the best things we can do as divers to reduce our chances of getting DCS according to all of the literature I read and the dive medicine training/seminars I have attended over the last 20 years or so.
Yes, the OP screwed up to some extent and went deeper than he should have, but given all the facts and the type of mistakes others do as I have seen them over the years, it is not the end of the world. I am sure that this dive leader (as other DM’s and instructors who work in dive destinations) have seen far worse really stupid and borderline suicidal acts but I don’t think that this OP’s behavior comes even close. We can dissect everything the OP did or didn’t do right in this particular story but I don’t think that he is the worst guy still. He did something not quite right but he still had the common sense to do something that is really good for him and his buddy (precautionary stop). The DM could have used this whole scenario much more effectively to get his point across, teach his clients a lesson that would benefit them for the rest of their dive career and he would still come out as a caring professional had he acted with tact and diplomacy. One can always argue the OP should have done this or that but, again, are dive leaders on tourist boat there to score points with their customers or are they there to make sure that the tourists are safe and have good time for these tourists to return to dive with them again??
I believe that a dive leader who loses his temper or starts to unleash his/her anger on his clients should just retire and find a different job. No one is perfect and no one will follow ALL directions all the time. We have to do the best we can do with what we have and still keep a smile on our face as if we are enjoying what we are doing even when we are not.
Safe Diving!!
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