WOW! It looks to me as if folks have totally misunderstood the original post.
I didn't see anything offensive in it at all. I saw someone expressing an opinion about a problem (accidents and close calls) and trying to offer a solution.
Divers vs underwater tourists. I think the terms were used to make the concept easier to discuss, not to get under anyone's skin. The terms don't matter, call everyone with a c-card a diver, what matters is does the person accept personal responsibility for their own safety on dives or do they expect someone else to keep them safe. If you expect someone else to keep you safe, you probably shouldn't make assumptions about lots of things - who is your dive buddy? If you are diving with a group and have not specifically made an agreement with a specific person to buddy up, you are diving solo within a group. Assuming someone is looking out for you can result in you being alone if trouble creeps up. Ask questions about the dive plan. If the plan exceeds your experience/comfort, you should have concerns and you should address those concerns when you are discussing the dive plan. Don't assume the dive guide (even when he's called a DM) is looking out for you. Don't assume your buddy is checking your air. Don't assume your buddy is checking your depth. Don't assume your buddy is checking your ascent rate. Don't assume..... If you want your buddy to check these things discuss it before the dive.
Personally, I take responsibility for my own safety, I'm not trusting enough to put that much faith in people.
In my opinion, everyone should reach that point before they receive their c-card.
Yes. Unfortunately, many divers are certified without reaching that point. That's one issue I have with training standards.
It's a horrible assumption, but unfortunately, there's good reason for the assumption. Many divers fit that mold quite nicely.
You may have a point, but aside from insulting those less experienced than you consider yourself, I'm not sure what it is. It is nice to know with what contempt you hold new divers who are responsibly trying to learn the sport by making sure they are diving with someone more experienced than themselves.
I haven't seen that at all.
Sounds like you are agreeing with the basic concepts expressed in the first post.
I think he would commend your wisdom.
If the original post had made no mention of "underwater tourists" and had merely explained what it means to "know your limits and don't exceed them," the post would have been essentially the same and while there would be disagreements on points, no feathers would have been ruffled and the general concept would have met with widespread agreement.
I didn't see anything offensive in it at all. I saw someone expressing an opinion about a problem (accidents and close calls) and trying to offer a solution.
Divers vs underwater tourists. I think the terms were used to make the concept easier to discuss, not to get under anyone's skin. The terms don't matter, call everyone with a c-card a diver, what matters is does the person accept personal responsibility for their own safety on dives or do they expect someone else to keep them safe. If you expect someone else to keep you safe, you probably shouldn't make assumptions about lots of things - who is your dive buddy? If you are diving with a group and have not specifically made an agreement with a specific person to buddy up, you are diving solo within a group. Assuming someone is looking out for you can result in you being alone if trouble creeps up. Ask questions about the dive plan. If the plan exceeds your experience/comfort, you should have concerns and you should address those concerns when you are discussing the dive plan. Don't assume the dive guide (even when he's called a DM) is looking out for you. Don't assume your buddy is checking your air. Don't assume your buddy is checking your depth. Don't assume your buddy is checking your ascent rate. Don't assume..... If you want your buddy to check these things discuss it before the dive.
Personally, I take responsibility for my own safety, I'm not trusting enough to put that much faith in people.
Guba:However the paradox is this: at what point is a person supposed to feel confident enough to quit using the DM?
In my opinion, everyone should reach that point before they receive their c-card.
Guba:Wasn't that point supposed to be when they earned their cert?
Yes. Unfortunately, many divers are certified without reaching that point. That's one issue I have with training standards.
Guba:Granted, this could be flawed logic too, but there appears to be a couple of assumptions here. The first is that a diver is incompetent and cannot plan their dives and "take responsibility" for themselves on their first outing, hence they need the DM.
It's a horrible assumption, but unfortunately, there's good reason for the assumption. Many divers fit that mold quite nicely.
You may have a point, but aside from insulting those less experienced than you consider yourself, I'm not sure what it is. It is nice to know with what contempt you hold new divers who are responsibly trying to learn the sport by making sure they are diving with someone more experienced than themselves.
Kingpatzer:Every post you make has such a condescending tone, that what I get most out of this thread is the level of self-conceit you have.
I haven't seen that at all.
Kingpatzer:I dove with only dive instructors and DM's for most of my first 50 some dives, predominately because I knew I wasn't an experienced diver . . . currently I'm just returning to diving after more than 18 months of not diving because of an accident. I've called on a very experienced DM budddy of mine to dive with me for the next dozen dives or so.
Sounds like you are agreeing with the basic concepts expressed in the first post.
Kingpatzer:Oh, how badly I must suck in your eyes.
I think he would commend your wisdom.
If the original post had made no mention of "underwater tourists" and had merely explained what it means to "know your limits and don't exceed them," the post would have been essentially the same and while there would be disagreements on points, no feathers would have been ruffled and the general concept would have met with widespread agreement.