The basics are not a big effort and should be included, even if only in the pool.
Pete
Pete
Diver Rescue
- Thread starter DCBC
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DevonDiver
N/A
Beautiful post! (And have I mentioned how glad I am that you're back?)
I've been reading accident and incident reports for five years, ranging from open water classes, to recreational dives, to technical and cave dives. The VAST majority of incidents, when any cause is known, were absolutely preventable by following the basic rules of whatever kind of diving the person was doing. You are far better off preventing an incident in the first place, than learning to salvage a situation gone bad. If we are going to focus our efforts in entry level classes, we should focus them on creating the kind of good habits that Devon Diver has listed in what I quoted above. People who maintain all those good practices can then learn how to bring me to the surface when I have my unavoidable medical event in the water -- because they aren't going to have to rescue me from an out of gas emergency, or an entanglement where my buddy was nowhere to assist.
DevonD -- your question regarding "basic" skills is, of course, the Big question. Apparently some people (DCBC?) believe "basic" includes some things that most of us believe are NOT basic. On DC's point regarding bringing an unconscious diver to the surface -- he appears to be a survivor of just such a rescue and that appears to be why he keeps hammering that point.
BUT, what he never explains is "Was his rescue a result of a basic level, recreational dive?" Since he toxed (or so he says), I find it really impossible to believe he was involved in a "basic Open Water recreational dive." While I admit to not knowing much, it is my understanding it is very hard to oxtox on air on a dive that is limited to 60 FSW or above. One might say it would be virtually impossible to do so on a RECREATIONAL dive.
Early on TSandM asked -- What could go wrong on a RECREATIONAL DIVE with a max depth of 60 FSW that would cause unconsciousness AND that would result in any significant chance of rescue (as opposed to recovery)? Well, I'm still waiting for someone to come up with that scenario.
As DevonD wrote, AT THE RECREATIONAL ENTRY LEVEL, it is much more important to teach students how to avoid bad things (primarily, running out of air!) than attempting to teach them a skill that is, for all intents and purposes, irrelevant to the type of diving they will be doing.
Do they need to learn how to help a tired diver? Sure -- and my guess is all are taught that.
Do they need to learn how to orally inflate their BC? Sure -- and my guess is all are taught that.
Do they need to learn that staying on the surface is the best way to survive? Sure -- and my guess is they are all taught that.
But for all they are taught in their class, after not being in the water for 18 months and just (perhaps) doing a 2 hour Scuba Review prior to their cruise, do any of you REALLY believe that being taught how to raise an unconscious diver in the OW class is going to have any effect?
BUT, what he never explains is "Was his rescue a result of a basic level, recreational dive?" Since he toxed (or so he says), I find it really impossible to believe he was involved in a "basic Open Water recreational dive." While I admit to not knowing much, it is my understanding it is very hard to oxtox on air on a dive that is limited to 60 FSW or above. One might say it would be virtually impossible to do so on a RECREATIONAL dive.
Early on TSandM asked -- What could go wrong on a RECREATIONAL DIVE with a max depth of 60 FSW that would cause unconsciousness AND that would result in any significant chance of rescue (as opposed to recovery)? Well, I'm still waiting for someone to come up with that scenario.
As DevonD wrote, AT THE RECREATIONAL ENTRY LEVEL, it is much more important to teach students how to avoid bad things (primarily, running out of air!) than attempting to teach them a skill that is, for all intents and purposes, irrelevant to the type of diving they will be doing.
Do they need to learn how to help a tired diver? Sure -- and my guess is all are taught that.
Do they need to learn how to orally inflate their BC? Sure -- and my guess is all are taught that.
Do they need to learn that staying on the surface is the best way to survive? Sure -- and my guess is they are all taught that.
But for all they are taught in their class, after not being in the water for 18 months and just (perhaps) doing a 2 hour Scuba Review prior to their cruise, do any of you REALLY believe that being taught how to raise an unconscious diver in the OW class is going to have any effect?
Bubbletrubble
Contributor
Certain medical conditions...
Ischemic stroke (depends on location of stroke, how far away medical help is -- Bora Bora far, San Diego close; still probably a long shot, though), certain kinds of seizure, insulin shock, certain infections involving the central nervous system, vasovagal syncope -- just to name a few.
The list gets longer the more you think about it.
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Bubbletrubble, I think some of those things are salvageable, but likely not on a dive boat. Insulin shock isn't going to be recognized, unless someone on the boat knows the person is diabetic, and how are you going to get sugar into them on a dive boat, if they're unconscious? Central nervous system infections? I doubt someone would feel well enough to begin a dive, if they were about to become unconscious from meningitis or encephalitis. We KNOW what the natural history of seizures underwater is.
I think it's nice for people to know how to retrieve an incapacitated diver, and I think Rescue is a class that everyone should take. I just think situations where a diver is incapacitated but salvageable are rare enough that it's okay for entry-level classes not to teach or test on this.
I think it's nice for people to know how to retrieve an incapacitated diver, and I think Rescue is a class that everyone should take. I just think situations where a diver is incapacitated but salvageable are rare enough that it's okay for entry-level classes not to teach or test on this.
Perhaps they're just yanking your proverbial chain, since you seem to circle back to this same issue over and over and over again.
You've already stated in other threads that you believe instructors who don't include rescue skills in OW are "negligent". Notwithstanding the inflammatory and insulting rhetoric, I think all instructors are generally in agreement that every diver should learn these skills -- the only question is whether this needs to be introduced before they're allowed to dive without supervision. Obviously you don't think so. I, on the other hand, don't have a big problem with students working on their basic diving skills on their own time and coming back for more training when they're ready. Yes, it's a calculated risk and there's a small chance that they may find themselves in a rescue situation that they don't know how to handle independently. But by the same token, there's also a risk that even with rescue training at the OW level, they wouldn't be comfortable or confident enough to execute an effective rescue anyway, and may put themselves at risk in the process. "Some training is better than none"? Maybe, depending on the situation.
If I've done my job well, my students will have a healthy respect for the ocean and an awareness that their C-card doesn't exempt them from the laws of physics. They'll know what their limits are and have the good sense to stay well within them. They'll also know that while their C-card allows them to dive unsupervised with a buddy, I'm always up for a fun dive...and they're always welcome to join other divers of all experience levels on the weekly shop dives.
While it's true that I can't force my students to take the rescue class later on, it's equally true that I can't force them to keep their rescue skills current even if I introduced them in the OW class. All I can do is stress the importance of continuing their training, and hope that I've instilled in them a sense of good judgment and a desire to learn these skills before they ever need to use them.
LeadTurn_SD
Contributor
Your points are good (as usual) Peter, but I have to disagree that teaching something to someone, even YEARS ago, will have no impact on how they react in an emergency, and that an emergency requiring a rescue of an unconscious or unresponsive diver is highly unlikely on a 60' recreational dive.
Not all divers that may need to be "raised" from depth are unconscious; but may be incapable of helping themselves. In the case below, I think passive panic and narcosis were the cause of the incident that I was involved in, that I referred to in my previous post:
*********************
There is one (actually, probably two) divers alive today because I was taught very basic rescue techniques in basic OW.
I was leading a dive in Kona, 1977, at the tender age of 19. As a "favor" to a mutual friend, I was taking a 40-something father and 15 year old son on a dive, and it was agreed that I would lead... I had briefed the dive to 60' max. 10 minutes into the dive the father blew right past me and the the briefed depth, his son in tow, and preceeded down to about 90 feet. I follwed and firmly signalled "up" (back to our briefed depth), the father shook his head, and ignored me when I repeated the signal; and worse, was ignoring his son, who had "settled" down to about 110 feet, and was sinking. Long story short, I gave up on the dad, swam down, grabbed the son (who was essentially non-responsive) and I swam the boy up.... luckliy, the dad followed us back to shallower water.
Had I not grabbed the boy and swam him up, he would most likely sank down to about 180' (the bottom of the drop off). He would have certainly died. The father may have followed when he finally discovered his son was missing... double fatality.
****************
Having basic rescue training in OW is somewhat like taking a Red Cross CPR class, First Aid course, etc. In an emergency you may not remember everything, or do everything perfectly.... but you'll remember some of it, which is far better than no training at all.
Best wishes.
PfcAJ
Contributor
The role of the OW course is to train a self-sufficient and safe diver, capable of diving -without supervision- with a buddy of equal or greater experience/ qualification.
It is an entry-level course.
What you are talking about (assisting other groups) is far beyond the requirements of entry-level training. It is about taking responsibility for diving activities, larger groups and organising emergency procedures in general.
Every sport/activity has entry-level training, followed by a progressively advancing system of development. I've been on simular development paths with kayaking, sailing, martial arts, parachuting and mountaineering. None of the agencies governing training in those activities would expect an entry-level course to deal with emergency response and management.
Have a google... find ONE example of a sport or activity whose entry-level training course involves emergency management....
If that is your perception of the open water course, then you obviously got scammed when you took it.
It's also an insult to all of the instructors who do their utmost to train highly capable and confident entry-level divers.
First off, let me say that I was not trying to insult you or any other instructors. I'm sure some do a fantastic job, but I'm equally sure there are some that don't. If you're in the first group, you probably know who you are.
The current role of the OW course is as you described above. From what I understand, PADI instructors cannot teach past the standard. Regardless, rescue stuff at the OW level is not in the standard and isn't expected to be taught.
This "entry level" class doesn't really go over a lot of important stuff. Go out on a dive boat and just look around if you don't believe me. We read and type about the lack of training all the time on SB (just look at all the gas management threads). It might be entry level, but it can still cover important things. I think leaving it out is a bad idea.
As to "what other entry level class has emergency stuff," I think boating classes do (flares, EPRIB, lifejackets, call the coastguard), scuba kinda does (octo, CESA, etc), and I'm reasonably sure mountaineering does (a quick look at National Outdoor Leadership Schools website shows a risk management and emergency procedures section of every class). Others probably do, but you have google just like I do
Assisting "other groups" is highly suspect. I've dived many times where I've had a buddy, but others have been around. If someone has an issue, should I just let it go since I'm not their buddy? Of course not (esp since their buddy probably doesn't have rescue skills).
In regards to the "what would cause a diver to be unconscious and recoverable" question...What's it matter? If you don't recover them, they have NO chance. At least they have one on the surface. Sheck brought a diver out of Litter River that was unconscious and he lived. Writing someone off as "done for" is ridiculous.
Bubbletrubble
Contributor
I'm not saying that any of these medical conditions can be managed well on a boat.
I was viewing these scenarios in the context of San Diego diving. Since Wreck Alley was on the brain, I was thinking about dive sites that were relatively close to land where highly skilled medical professionals are stationed.
I probably agree with this statement. I provided the list of medical conditions purely as an answer to Peter's "challenge."
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