Diver missing on Spiegel Grove - Key Largo Florida

[Wookie]

No assumptions. I am talking about things arranged in advance. They knew what we wanted to do before we got on the boat, and they said it as OK. If they had not said it was OK, we would not have done it. I have never gone against a stated policy without clear permission.

My mistake and apologies. It's a bit of a touchy subject. I've been accused of playing favoritism with customers before and allowing them to do something against stated policy. That's one of the reasons we have fewer policies than we used to. If you have a policy, it needs to apply to everyone equally.

 

[Johnoly]

... In reality, we give the briefing telling you the rules of the dive. .....

I've tapped divers on the shoulder telling them to be quiet, stop talking, and listen to the DM briefing and CG safety. They are the first ones who's tank falls on the floor, or we spend an extra hour looking for them because they didn't hear they could be re-dropped if they miss the site. I 100% agree with the "Boat's full" list!!

 

[drrich2]

So let's assume that the operator did indeed know that they were planning that penetration, as the article said they did. That means the operator knowingly allowed people doing the second dive of the day to do a penetration dive at 100 feet without truly adequate gas reserves or proper equipment. If so...well, you draw your own conclusions.

And that cuts to much of the meat of the issue.

I offer a question to go with that. Do you (divers in general, not BounderJohn in particular) want to treated as an adult?

This is an important question. Rights and responsibilities go together, and it works both ways. Liberty isn't so much liberty when you're only free to do what others don't disagree with. There's some degree of 'culture war' as to the proper balance between a Socialist-mentality 'Nanny State' vs. an Individualistic frontier every-man-for-himself 'Don't Tread On Me' philosophy.

Officially, the Op. couldn't condone it. Fact of our litigious society.

If (and this is pure hypothetical thinking here, no accusation toward the Dive Op. at all) the staff did notice unofficially, well...

So what?

That is the question.

Richard.

 

[boulderjohn]

My mistake and apologies. It's a bit of a touchy subject. I've been accused of playing favoritism with customers before and allowing them to do something against stated policy. That's one of the reasons we have fewer policies than we used to. If you have a policy, it needs to apply to everyone equally.

No problems. I was primarily thinking of technical diving teaching situations. As I am sure you know, many skills associated with technical diving can be done at any depth, and you can save a lot of money by doing those skills on shallower dives. Dive operators want to attract instructors to their boats, and they will not only allow the tech instructor and students to go their own way on a dive, they will give discounts for it.

On the other hand, anyone who regularly reads the posts in the Cozumel forum will have encountered posts that suggest that if a DM has not quietly told you you can take a dip to 200 feet, then you must be a pretty pathetic diver. I think that is a ridiculous overstatement, but it does imply that it does occasionally happen.

EDIT: My point was this. My understanding is that the divers were frequent users of this operator and frequent divers of this wreck. Does this imply that they enjoyed some privilege? Maybe it does. Maybe this was not the first time they had done such penetrations, and maybe they knew it would be accepted. I know better than to accept what newspapers say without reservations, but the article does suggest they knew about it ahead of time.

 

[DoNotDstrb]

You assume you had full knowledge and approval of the boat crew. We are not the scuba police, nor do we want to be. In reality, we give the briefing telling you the rules of the dive. If you choose to disregard the briefing, we will not sit you out or punish you, but we will put you on our "boat's full" list. You will not be welcome back, because, in essence, you've just told the Captain, who has seen more than a few folks die stupidly, and the Divemaster, who has had to drag the dead stinking bodies of said stupid divers back to the boat, to go take a flying f**k in a rolling doughnut.

With my attitude, there are more than a few folks on the "boat's full" list, and many more who wouldn't come with me if I offered the last wreck trek in the world. It's all good. We do offer proper wreck penetration training. We'll be offering it on 3 trips next year.

+1 ---

There are recreational dive charters with their rules and technical dive charters with their MUCH DIFFERENT rules. They are both widely available. I recommend that everyone go on the boat suited (and equipped) for what they want (and are presumably qualified) to do.

Anyone that tells me to my face they are going to ignore MY rules on MY boat is not welcome back. That said, we are all adults and you can do what you want once you're in the water... I don't have any little video drones following you around. All I ask is that you please keep it to yourself while on the boat and, if you do something truly stupid, die quietly.

---------- Post added October 21st, 2013 at 07:59 PM ----------

I am sure they made that briefing to the general population. No question about it.

When I dive with many operators, I hear many similar rules about the dives. I also know that ones who know me and my credentials will quietly let me know that those rules don't all pertain to me.

I have been on many boats listening to the general warnings given to everyone, knowing that my buddy and I were going to do something different, with the full knowledge and approval of the boat crew.

Please post a list of operators that knowingly and routinely allow divers to engage in unsafe activities that exceed their qualifications and equipment capabilities. I think many of us would like to know who they are.

 

[CoralSeaMan]

And that cuts to much of the meat of the issue.

I offer a question to go with that. Do you (divers in general, not BounderJohn in particular) want to treated as an adult?

This is an important question. Rights and responsibilities go together, and it works both ways. Liberty isn't so much liberty when you're only free to do what others don't disagree with. There's some degree of 'culture war' as to the proper balance between a Socialist-mentality 'Nanny State' vs. an Individualistic frontier every-man-for-himself 'Don't Tread On Me' philosophy.

Officially, the Op. couldn't condone it. Fact of our litigious society.

If (and this is pure hypothetical thinking here, no accusation toward the Dive Op. at all) the staff did notice unofficially, well...

So what?

That is the question.

Richard.

The issue is not "individualistic frontier every-man-for-himself 'Don't Tread On Me' philosophy." The issue will arise when that diver is dead and the family wants to know why the dive operator (and anyone else with a pocket) did not stop the diver. That is the reality.

 

[lv2dive]

...Please post a list of operators that knowingly and routinely allow divers to engage in unsafe activities that exceed their qualifications and equipment capabilities. I think many of us would like to know who they are.

I did not read where he posted anything about any dives that exceeded any diver's qualifications or equipment capabilities?

 

[DoNotDstrb]

I did not read where he posted anything about any dives that exceeded any diver's qualifications or equipment capabilities?

No, he didn't say that exactly.... but the way I read it, that was certainly the implication. For the record, I have no reason to doubt boulderjohn's qualifications nor his ability to do any dive he sees fit doing.

My issue is with the boat crews that play loosy-goosy with their own rules..... My life experience (going way beyond but certainly including diving) tells me that any organization that routinely breaks its own rules for "special cases" is an accident waiting to happen. I have seen this time and time again.

A boat and crew set up for and experienced in supporting technical diving is not the same as the Ocean Divers green boat that happens to have a bunch of techies on board..... however qualified they may be....

 

[Lorenzoid]

. . .
Officially, the Op. couldn't condone it. Fact of our litigious society.
. . .
Richard.

Even UNofficially, a dive op would be wise not to condone it, because it will come out during litigation in our litigious society.

 

[scubadada]

This was their second dive of the day on the ship, and, according to that article their average depth for the dive had to be in the vicinity of 100 feet. The article said that they were not carrying enough gas to do the dive. Based on the other information about the dive time, and taking some wild speculation about dive times, tank sizes (I assumed big), and SAC rates, I would agree that they really barely had enough gas to do the dive. They certainly did not have enough gas to deal with any emergencies effectively.

So let's assume that the operator did indeed know that they were planning that penetration, as the article said they did. That means the operator knowingly allowed people doing the second dive of the day to do a penetration dive at 100 feet without truly adequate gas reserves or proper equipment. If so...well, you draw your own conclusions.

For those of you who have a program like V-Planner, put in some reasonable guesses for the two dives in terms of depth, nitrox mix, bottom time,SAC rates, surface intervals, etc., and see what you get.

Exactly what I have been wondering while reading this thread. I'm a recreational diver and have 20 dives on the Spiegel Grove using an Al80 with 32%. I have reasonably good gas consumption, my average run time on these dives is 45 minutes, limited by either gas or NDL depending on my average depth, which is considerably above 100 feet.

Being their 2nd dive of the day, how much no deco time could they possibly have had? Looks like this was a planned deco in addition to a planned penetration dive.