Diver missing on Spiegel Grove - Key Largo Florida

[TSandM]

Actually, we often run tech and rec dives off the same boat. The group all dives doubles anyway (or almost all) so putting on a few 40's for deco doesn't make a great deal of difference, and the average Tech 1 dive has about a 60 minute run time, which is the same as what most of our recreational divers do. It actually works quite well, and allows the tech divers to get in more dives than they would if they had to wait for dedicated tech charters.

 

[iluvtheocean]

i don't see a lot of doubles down here -- lots of AL80s among the rental crowd or various sizes of single steels among the locals but then again we get a lot of tourists --- not saying there aren't mixed boats and i guess it really depends on where they are between jupiter and key west and what sites. but i also tend to shore dives rather than boat dives due to time constraints or cash issues... spend $5 in parking at the beach vs $55+ for boat dive. i don't see anything wrong with mixed boats as long as it's all within the time constraints. hmm I guess i was thinking more of the cattle boats or the small 6 packs in regards to lack of deck space.

I know Wookie has much more leeway as to what he can offer since it is a liveaboard. still saving for a trip

 

[down4fun]

Sometimes a little bit of knowledge is dangerous. You read some forums, learn some basics. You know you need a guideline, you know you need a redundant source of gas. And maybe you make some small penetration dives successfully. This leads to increasingly aggressive dives and penetrations believing that you are doing it right. Until it all goes wrong.

I have done a few dives on the SG, and some of those were penetration dives, but they were done on steel doubles following the rule of thirds or on a RB with enough bailout to make exit from the most distant point plus some. And even in those dives I have not yet been to the engine room.

It seems like in the world of wreck penetration the "engine room" is considered the heart of the wreck and a sort of merit badge among the ego driven. A bragging right to be talked about over the post dive beers. Technical diving is full of temptation and egos, which is a very dangerous combination.

 

[seaseadee]

I have a stupid noob question... Are there maps of these wrecks? Are there (or maybe should there be) "you are here" signs inside these wrecks? It just seems like you would stand a better chance of getting out alive if you had some sort of map to guide you.


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[DandyDon]

I have a stupid noob question... Are there maps of these wrecks? Are there (or maybe should there be) "you are here" signs inside these wrecks? It just seems like you would stand a better chance of getting out alive if you had some sort of map to guide you.

For well trained wreck divers, that would be a bit much. There are hundreds or maybe thousands of diveable wrecks around the world, and they change as hurricanes, currents, decay, etc. take their tolls. The first few times I dived this wreck, it was on its side after a catastrophic early sinking while being towed to the intended site, then a hurricane turned it upright. There is another wreck near there, the Eagle I think, that was broken in half by a hurricane after sinking.

Other divers should not do penetrations.

 

[JamesK]

I have a stupid noob question... Are there maps of these wrecks? Are there (or maybe should there be) "you are here" signs inside these wrecks? It just seems like you would stand a better chance of getting out alive if you had some sort of map to guide you.


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I feel this could quite possibly cost lives as well. Not only for the reasons stated above, but also by encouraging others to penetrate the wreck. Their is a lot more to wreck diving then simply knowing where you are at. Without the training to deal with those situations, making it seemingly easier to navigate, is a wreck waiting to happen. No pun intended.


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[drrich2]

Following up what JamesK said, yes, if people think a wreck has been internally labeled to make it easy to get out of, more ill-trained people will decide to penetrate it on the grounds it's been 'made safe.'

And, along the lines of the 'No good deed goes unpunished' cliche', when someone dies in it, an attorney and a blame-externalizing family could argue that the internal guide signs were not adequately put in place; not enough of them, not legible enough, there should've been a lighting system inside the ship in case a diver's light failed, etc..., and that this negligent deployment of the guide system was a cause of the death.

Sounds ridiculous to us, of course. A new widow with no job skills raising 3 kids who just lost their Daddy and thinks a better sign would've led to Hubby/Daddy still being alive might see it differently. And she'd be wrong. But verdicts aren't always in favor of what's right.

Richard.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I have a stupid noob question... Are there maps of these wrecks? Are there (or maybe should there be) "you are here" signs inside these wrecks? It just seems like you would stand a better chance of getting out alive if you had some sort of map to guide you.

Part of wreck diving is finding out about the wreck you want to explore. Sometimes that involves researching the vessel ... looking at maps or diagrams of how it was laid out when it was intact ... but often those maps bear little resemblance to what the wreck looks like now. On prepared wrecks like the SG they can be useful, because the ship is pretty much intact ... but even then there can be changes over time as things deteriorate, walls collapse, ceilings peel away, and the salt water slowly reclaims the wreck.

Wreck divers don't rely on maps ... those only help to give you a mental picture of what you might expect, or how to locate specific areas of the wreck that you want to find. For navigation you generally run a line, using a reel, beginning outside of the wreck at the point of penetration. It's a lot like cave diving in that respect ... you always maintain a continuous line between you and the way out. Some folks ... John Chatterton, most famously ... do what they refer to as "progressive penetration" ... familiarizing themselves with areas on the ship through multiple dives, each successively more complex than the previous. It's a riskier way to dive in some respects, and less risky in others ... IF you have the patience, skills, and self-discipline to use that method appropriately.

Wreck divers who get into trouble are usually those who didn't plan and prepare properly, or who overestimate their own abilities to navigate their way out once they go in. As in any overhead environment, you have to plan your gas not just appropriate to the dive, but with some consideration to what can go wrong and what reserves you would need to deal with it. Going inside a wreck the size of the SG with a single tank and a pony is very risky ... you'll probably be OK if everything goes right, but you don't have adequate reserves to survive if something delays your exit from the ship. In that case, a map or a "you are here" sign won't be a lot of help because the real cause of the problem isn't being lost, it's being stupid.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[DoNotDstrb]

I agree with the concensus that internally labeled wrecks and well-published maps would kill more people than they save. There ARE maps of the interior of many of these wrecks both from the time when they were still working ships and post-sinking..... Any wreck diver knows they are for informational purposes only and not to be relied upon for navigation.

Making a seguay here..... Although you should still run your own, for an added measure of safety, many cave systems have permanently installed lines to the limit of what's been explored and the famous Grim Reaper "Go past here and you will die...." sign when the limits of previous exploration has been reached. This seems to not kill people in caves... IDK if the same would hold true on wrecks since so many recreational divers who dive wrecks externally could be tempted versus cave entrances where pretty much noone goes except cave divers.

 

[Doppler]

Making a seguay here..... Although you should still run your own, for an added measure of safety, many cave systems have permanently installed lines to the limit of what's been explored and the famous Grim Reaper "Go past here and you will die...." sign when the limits of previous exploration has been reached. This seems to not kill people in caves... IDK if the same would hold true on wrecks since so many recreational divers who dive wrecks externally could be tempted versus cave entrances where pretty much noone goes except cave divers.

I have seen a couple of permanent lines installed in wrecks and a STOP prevent your own death sign just inside the superstructure of one. Cannot recall the actual circumstances completely but they were removed by other divers because it was thought they encouraged unqualified divers to penetrate. I think the sign was returned to the shop owner that placed it.

If you're familiar with skiing, you'll be aware of the color coding system that indicates the skill level needed to navigate particular trails... green, blue, black etc. Someone once suggested a similar system for wrecks. However, I have seen divers on wrecks I would classify as a bunny hill making such a mess of it that for them it was the equivalent of a double black diamond.

Wrecks are organic entities and a whole order of magnitude more difficult in many ways than caves. I dive and teach in both and am way more on edge inside a wreck because there is no way to guarantee that the way you came in will be the best way to get out. That's not always the case, but I can honestly say that I have never been lost in a cave, even when laying new line... I have second-guessed my location in a wreck, even with a reel in my hand and a continuous line to the exit. Wrecks are way more challenging to navigate. And with all due respect to John, I think progressive penetration is bull****. Run a line. If you think running a line is dangerous, you don't know how to run a line. Learn, practice, do it. Period.