Diver missing on Spiegel Grove - Key Largo Florida

[iluvtheocean]

My mistake and apologies. It's a bit of a touchy subject. I've been accused of playing favoritism with customers before and allowing them to do something against stated policy. That's one of the reasons we have fewer policies than we used to. If you have a policy, it needs to apply to everyone equally.

it sounds to me that both of you are saying it's fine if it's a tech dive that's per-arranged with a filed dive plan. although i can't see many recreational ops mixing rec & tec dives on the same dive due to time constraints and/or deck space.


there are some wrecks in miami & the keys where limited penetration on a rec dive isn't frowned upon but then again that is limited. For example the Ophelia Brian in biscayne you can enter the bridge? area -- since it is enclosed but with wide open windows -- would that count as actual penetration? last time i was there i did not go in myself - 1 cause it was already full of photographers and it was during one of my AOW dives..

 

[Croomrider]

Being their 2nd dive of the day, how much no deco time could they possibly have had? Looks like this was a planned deco in addition to a planned penetration dive.

IDK, it just looks to me like too much lack of planning. I am not tech trained, but in my understanding if they were planning deco, they should have planned on having deco gasses for accelerated deco, or at least, much more gas than they obviously had. They may have had some training, but it apparently was not good enough for what they were trying to do, unless everything went perfectly. If you only plan for things going perfectly, you are likely to get in trouble!

Mike

 

[nimoh]

it sounds to me that both of you are saying it's fine if it's a tech dive that's per-arranged with a filed dive plan. although i can't see many recreational ops mixing rec & tec dives on the same dive due to time constraints and/or deck space.

it seems to me that if the rec divers are doing two dives with a surface interval, then it would actually be better to mix rec and tec on the same boat since the entries/exits could be staggered to make more room on the deck for gearing up.

 

[boulderjohn]

A number of years ago an aircraft carrier, the Oriskany, was sunk off the coast of Florida. It was (and is) against the law to remove anything from the wreck. Soon after it was sunk, a diver removed a large control panel (IIRC) from the wreck, and he wrote about doing so on the Internet. Asked about it, the skipper of the boat said that he could not control what divers did when they were underwater. He did not know it had happened. Unfortunately for that defense, when the diver wrote about it, he thanked the skipper for his help in telling him where to find the control panel and helping him bring it back on board. (Remember that it was big--hard to miss.) After the ensuing uproar, the diver apparently returned it to its rightful place. Soon after, someone else managed to take it and get it back on board an operator's boat without anyone noticing it, and this time the diver was wise enough not to brag about it publicly.

I was on a boat in Cozumel a couple of years ago on which a diver was pulling on his gloves and preparing his goody bag for all the souvenirs he was planning to bring to the surface. Neither the skipper nor the DM said a word. Before he splashed, I told him that both wearing gloves and bringing anything up from the marine park were against the law there. He did not know that, so he took the gloves off and stowed the goody bag.

I dived with an operator in Belize that had a clearly written policy prohibiting the use of gloves on dives. On one dive I saw a family of three all wearing gloves, and I saw why--they used them to pull themselves along the living reef continually as they dived. After that dive, I spoke to the DM about it, and he assured me he would take care of it. They did it again on the next dive, without a hint of disapproval from the DM.

The Mike Ball company in Australia has a strict policy requiring all divers to take a checkout dive before diving the Great Barrier Reef with them. They allowed Gabe and Tina Watson to skip that required checkout dive despite the fact that it was Tina's first ocean dive and first dive after OW certification, simply because Gabe, a relatively inexperienced ocean diver himself, said they didn't need it because he had rescue diver certification. Mike Ball paid a hefty fine for violating their own policies when Tina died and Gabe was unable to save her.

Go to the Cozumel forum and see how many threads talk about regular customers of dive operators being allowed to do bounce dives to 200 feet while the rest of the group follows the DM above them, a clear violation of Cozumel law and operator policy.

I am sure that the overwhelming majority of dive operators strictly follow all policies and all laws with all customers, but it is perfectly clear that some do not. I am not saying that it happened in this case. I am not saying that news articles are 100% accurate--in fact, that would be rare. I am simply saying that the news article suggests that the boat crew did know what they were doing, and it is possible--however unlikely that it may be--that in this case it was accurate.

 

[DoNotDstrb]

it sounds to me that both of you are saying it's fine if it's a tech dive that's per-arranged with a filed dive plan. although i can't see many recreational ops mixing rec & tec dives on the same dive due to time constraints and/or deck space.


there are some wrecks in miami & the keys where limited penetration on a rec dive isn't frowned upon but then again that is limited. For example the Ophelia Brian in biscayne you can enter the bridge? area -- since it is enclosed but with wide open windows -- would that count as actual penetration? last time i was there i did not go in myself - 1 cause it was already full of photographers and it was during one of my AOW dives..

I am familiar with the Ophelia Brian and what you describe is not considered a "penetration" --

Swimming through an enclosed area where a) no artificial light is required AND b) the exit on the other end is CLEARLY visible meaning no backtracking is required is generally OK with recreational wreck dive charters and AFAIK does not violate the rules of any training agency for what a non-tech-trained diver should do.

The Spiegel Grove has several such "swim-though" areas..... Where these two went and where the dead diver's body was found IS NOT one of them and is inside an area that was originally blocked off on purpose as part of the sinking prep. Over the years, wreck drivers have broken through several of these barriers on that wreck....

 

[iluvtheocean]

it seems to me that if the rec divers are doing two dives with a surface interval, then it would actually be better to mix rec and tec on the same boat since the entries/exits could be staggered to make more room on the deck for gearing up.

that might make since if it's a double dip on the same site and the boat is large enough for all the extra tanks, etc. -- quite often it's 2 different sites though and room enough for your 2 or 3 tanks and your gear bag underneath if the boat is packed.

this is just referring to ops in south florida btw --- ops in other states or countries may be different. many ops down here won't allow deco dives either on their rec charters - i'm assuming mainly for liability & training limitations by certain agencies (who don't teach deco to their OW & AOW levels)

whether or not the dive op is culpable in this case is up to the authorities
Coz is governed by Mexican law though yes?

 

[boulderjohn]

I have done mixed rec and tech dive boats in Cozumel. It is not easy, but it can be done. Frankly, I didn't think it was a good deal for the rec divers. They had to do a lot of sitting around, and their 2-tank dives took up a lot more of their day than if they were on a dedicated rec trip.

In some of the situations to which I referred above, I have gone on rec boats with tech gear, including multiple tanks. (As I said before, all of it cleared in advance.) The rec divers sometimes look at you and say something like, "Well, it looks like you'll have enough air for the dive." Once under water, we would go on our own way for training purposes (all we wanted from the boat was a ride to deeper water), but we would return to the boat in accordance with the expected rec dive time. Thus, it would have looked like the boat was doing a mixed rec/tech group, but it was really all rec.

 

[drrich2]

The issue is not "individualistic frontier every-man-for-himself 'Don't Tread On Me' philosophy." The issue will arise when that diver is dead and the family wants to know why the dive operator (and anyone else with a pocket) did not stop the diver. That is the reality.

It's an issue at the individual level (personal morality and perceived responsibility; is there a moral duty to intervene?), and at the societal level (which speaks of risk management/liability; as a society, we have had a hand in creating this litigious culture).

There's no disagreement that in terms of legal liability there's a risk management issue. I imagine the dive op. wants no appearance of being aware of what those people were going to do.

I'm reminded of the SDI Solo diver liability waiver; it's not only comprehensive and strong in language, but also requires the diver to hand-write a substantial portion, proving that it was read, not just signed off on superficially.

Richard.

 

[sharpenu]

It took me a bit to reply, because I wanted to make sure I had some facts. I spoke with Jim's instructor, who has himself been around the block more than a few times, having been an instructor under Hal Watts. Jim is a properly trained and certified wreck diver, and has been for a few years. He is also trained as a confined space rescue and trench rescue technician. The dive operation that was used is one that he uses frequently. I cannot speak to Joe's credentials as a diver, but he has been diving for quite awhile.
I can tell you that many dive boats in South Florida do have separate rules for newcomers and regulars. I regularly dive one boat that I have an arrangement with. The rules that the newcomers are asked to follow do not apply to me, because of a long standing personal relationship with the Captain.

 

[Wookie]

it sounds to me that both of you are saying it's fine if it's a tech dive that's per-arranged with a filed dive plan. although i can't see many recreational ops mixing rec & tec dives on the same dive due to time constraints and/or deck space.

We offer tech trips to the artificial reefs of the Keys, usually AN/DP dives, because trimix just isn't worth the bother. We offer mixed trips where anything goes, to the limits of your present certification, as those are great trips for husband techies and their wives to dive together, and then when she runs low, she comes up and he continues his dive with his buddies. Those are also great training opportunities for instructors to complete AN/DP, Adv wreck pen, recreational trimix, etc. We also offer offer recreational only wreck crawls that hit all 9 of the wrecks in the keys. All have different rules that are clearly spelled out for the customer before they buy their trip.