Diver missing on Spiegel Grove - Key Largo Florida

[down4fun]

I have a stupid noob question... Are there maps of these wrecks? Are there (or maybe should there be) "you are here" signs inside these wrecks? It just seems like you would stand a better chance of getting out alive if you had some sort of map to guide you.


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Although diagrams or schematics of wrecks can be found you can't be sure that it is accurate. Many ships go through "multiple" lives before coming to rest on the ocean floor and many modifications to the original floor plan have been made. In addition as the ship decays walls fall down, doorways collapse. There is no way to keep a current map available to the public. And finally although the concept of a map is good, no map in the world will save you in a silt out where you can't see the line in your hand let alone a placard on the wall.

Making a seguay here..... Although you should still run your own, for an added measure of safety, many cave systems have permanently installed lines to the limit of what's been explored and the famous Grim Reaper "Go past here and you will die...." sign when the limits of previous exploration has been reached. This seems to not kill people in caves... IDK if the same would hold true on wrecks since so many recreational divers who dive wrecks externally could be tempted versus cave entrances where pretty much noone goes except cave divers.

A couple of issues i see here. One, caves usually have one entrance and one exit so one sign and a mainline. Wrecks can have many, many entrances and exits. Not only is that a lot of signs, but difficult to maintain. Also in the caves there are teams or groups dedicated to the maintenance of those lines and ensuring they are intact. This would be next to impossible to do on the many, many wrecks scattered about the ocean floor.


The size of some of these larger wrecks is enormous. And I think the scale is hard for some to imagine. I was recently on the Vandenberg. She is over 500 feet long, served in three different capacities as a ship. Thus modified multiple times from her original drawings that can be found online. There are hallways that dead end into nothing. I can't find the source but i believe i read she has over 630 rooms. If I had to guess I'd say there are at least 50 entrance points on her, probably more. While a dream for someone like myself who loves to penetrate wrecks she must be approached with caution and respect. The potential for a fatality is definitely there.

 

[seaseadee]

I agree with the concensus that internally labeled wrecks and well-published maps would kill more people than they save. There ARE maps of the interior of many of these wrecks both from the time when they were still working ships and post-sinking..... Any wreck diver knows they are for informational purposes only and not to be relied upon for navigation.

I can see the argument that the wreck is a living thing and changes over time. The resources necessary to keep that infrastructure current may not be there.
The argument that it would make things more unsafe than they are now is a perverse one. It's akin to saying that the addition of seat belts and air bags to cars makes people drive more unsafely.




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[DoNotDstrb]

I can see the argument that the wreck is a living thing and changes over time. The resources necessary to keep that infrastructure current may not be there.
The argument that it would make things more unsafe than they are now is a perverse one. It's akin to saying that the addition of seat belts and air bags to cars makes people drive more unsafely.




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You have to understand what I said in context...... With all the barely-certified recreational divers that frequent these wrecks... signs that read "Welcome to the Entrance to the Interior of This Wreck" and/or "All entrances/exits and safe passageways are clearly marked.... please follow the arrows" would tempt many people to venture inside than have no business in there. An open hatch leading to a pitch-black interior is a lot less inviting/tempting to the "casual" bumbling wannabe adventurer.

Your seatbelt analogy would actually be true if somehow seatbelts and airbags made unqualified drivers venture to places where they are not qualified to drive...... or make untrained drivers believe that they can drive because the car has all this safety equipment.

This is obviously not the case with driving cars... but all you need to do is Google "Spiegel Grove penetration" and YouTube will illustrate for you the caliber of stupid diver that frequents wrecks found at recreational depths. Just now, I watched a 10 minute video of 3 guys penetrating the Spiegel all the way to the galley with NO LINES, NO DOUBLES, NO PONY, and tiny little handheld lights. They silted out a couple of times and were one wrong turn away from death. Clearly at least the leader had done this before since he appeared to know his way around in there.... but that level of hubris is PURE STUPIDITY and taking the chance of killing one of your friends is not a very friendly thing to do.

 

[iluvtheocean]

i've got to look for those videos now! not that i want to try it.... (although i would love to have proper training on wreck diving -- whether i do any penetration or not - it would make me a better diver overall)

signs are just an invitation for idiots.....and there will be idiots whether there are signs or not. and these are the same people who would willing stick their hands into a moray hole thinking they can fish for them like catfish..

there are "maps" of the wrecks -- but just of the outside - designed for those who want to explore the OUTSIDE (referring to the plastic placards you can get in most shops around here)

DoNotDstrb -- the friends who agreed to go it like that have to be crazy/stupid as well -- i'd do a "trust me" dive around a reef or the OUTSIDE of a wreck if i feel it's within my abilities (i consider instrabuddies to be a form of trust-me btw soo...) but trusting someone to lead me around the inside of wreck w/o proper equipment, training & skills, and a detailed dive plan coordinated with the topside -- i agree that is total stupidity and suicidal activity. So if they decided to follow the idiot inside --- they aren't lemmings so they are just as culpable. ---

hmm... going with the unqualified drivers venturing where they are not qualified to drive --- that describes quite a few people in south florida who don't know how to drive but still get on the road w/o a license or insurance. I wonder how many of them are diving? food for thought

can you give a link for the particular video you are referring to? when i googled it -- only 1 video came up immediately and i don't wanna bad-mouth the person uploading that one since the name is known to me.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I had a student who actually served on the Vandenberg as a civilian consultant. The Vandy was a spy ship. It was used in the movie Virus with Jamie Lee Curtis. The Vandenberg's exact configuration was always classified as they changed things for the various missions it was tasked with and the gear that needed to be used. He told me there would be doorways and walls that would appear and disappear between sailings. Sometimes a person would ask a question like "wasn't there a door here last time?" Often to be met with silence or a warning to not spread that around. Sometimes they'd get told it was their imagination. As such any plans for it are likely wrong and as she settles and starts to degrade there could be some of these things opening up.
Having said that one should not start tapping on walls.

The issue I see most often happening with penetrations on these "clean" wrecks is that they are too clean. The openings are too inviting. I did a wreck class this past summer and one of the things I did was take number 18 line and create a spider web in the belly of a big Sikorsky helicopter for my student to swim through. After we had also done some entanglement drills on the outside.

His biggest realization was how bad he was able to get into trouble before he even realized he was in it. He was expecting a sudden jerk or pull and got none until he had a tank valve, one leg, the other foot, and a gauge caught. Fortunately he knew to not move suddenly. Just stop, look, evaluate, and extricate. One thing at a time. We also did very careful surveys of the outside of that and a jet. Noting the rivets that had popped that were holding the tail on. The jagged paper thin skin that looked solid. The small protrusions that could snag a hose or suit.

Most mainstream recreational wreck courses do not spend nearly enough time illustrating just how dangerous it is and how many ways there are to get hurt or killed, not only in one but on one as well. Wrecks attract fish. Fish attract fishermen. Fishermen use nets and monofilament line. Either of which can kill you on the outside as well as the stuff that can do it inside.

 

[kimbalabala]

can you give a link for the particular video you are referring to? when i googled it -- only 1 video came up immediately and i don't wanna bad-mouth the person uploading that one since the name is known to me.

I went to youtube and searched "Spiegel grove penetration" and got a bunch of videos. Maybe you put the "e" before "i"? I couldn't watch the videos. I don't have the grit for wreck or cave diving - I got nervous sitting at my desk!! Especially nerve wracking watching the ones where the guys are diving with a single tank and the picture is pretty much black except for a single tiny beam of light. Egads.

 

[Doppler]

although i would love to have proper training on wreck diving -- whether i do any penetration or not - it would make me a better diver overall

If you decide you want to go ahead, contact me.

 

[Dr. Lecter]

And with all due respect to John, I think progressive penetration is bull****. Run a line. If you think running a line is dangerous, you don't know how to run a line. Learn, practice, do it. Period.

I assume you'll admit that a wreck is nowhere near as line-friendly a place as a cave. Wreck divers who put the same kind of absolute reliance on a continuous guideline to OW that cave divers do are staking their lives on a trail of bread crumbs that may have been gobbled up behind them no matter how carefully they placed it. As I recall, more than a few extremely experienced cave divers found out the hard way that wrecks and caves are not the same environments.

 

[RJP]

Please post a list of operators that knowingly and routinely allow divers to engage in unsafe activities that exceed their qualifications and equipment capabilities. I think many of us would like to know who they are.

What do you mean by "knowingly and routinely" in your question? How much babysitting do you and/or other divers need? Here in NJ, dive boats are a water taxi service - we leave the dock at 7am, head to a certain wreck, stay there for a few hours, and come back. For some amount of money you can come with us, and while we're tied into the wreck... if you decide to strap your own tank to your back and jump off the boat we only ask that you be certified to dive to the depth of the wreck and provide/observe an accurate run time. Are we supposed to analyze your tanks? Check to make sure you have enough cutting instruments? Should I do a checkout dive with you to see if you can actually dive worth a damn? Who's definition of "dive worth a damn" should I use? I know people who have no formal deco certs who I'd trust my kids to dive the Doria with, and folks with umpteen formal tech/deco certs that I wouldn't personally do a Discover Scuba with.

Who's criteria should I use to determine whether you are equipped properly? To me, that means BP/W (no bungies of death) single continuous webbing, standard gasses, a couple of reels (nothing with triggers or crazy set-ups) two SMBs, backup mask, SPG clipped to left hip d-ring, etc, etc.

We don't put a guide in the water. We don't plan your dive. Hell, we don't even provide a dive briefing! How do we know whether you are or intend to engage in unsafe activities when you're in the water?

Sure, if you come out with us once and prove yourself to be a hazard to yourself or others you'll not be welcome back. Just don't know how we can vigilantly and proactively screen and manage for that.

 

[Dr. Lecter]

Here in NJ, dive boats are a water taxi service - we leave the dock at 7am, head to a certain wreck, stay there for a few hours, and come back. For some amount of money you can come with us, and while we're tied into the wreck... if you decide to strap your own tank to your back and jump off the boat we only ask that you be certified to dive to the depth of the wreck and provide/observe an accurate run time.

We don't put a guide in the water. We don't plan your dive. Hell, we don't even provide a dive briefing! How do we know whether you are or intend to engage in unsafe activities when you're in the water?

And Gods bless NE boats for that. Anyone who has come to Hawaii will understand what I mean.