Diver missing on Spiegel Grove - Key Largo Florida

[RJP]

I assume you'll admit that a wreck is nowhere near as line-friendly a place as a cave. Wreck divers who put the same kind of absolute reliance on a continuous guideline to OW that cave divers do are staking their lives on a trail of bread crumbs that may have been gobbled up behind them no matter how carefully they placed it. As I recall, more than a few extremely experienced cave divers found out the hard way that wrecks and caves are not the same environments.

I don't think that Doppler was suggesting ABSOLUTE reliance on a line. But certainly the polar opposite - not having a line AT ALL - is potentially a far worse mistake to make. The main cave divers I know of who got in trouble in wrecks most often did so out of arrogance, overconfidence, or complacency more so than a lack of understanding of the differences betwen caves and wrecks. I'd trust an experienced cave diver in a wreck far more so than an experienced wreck diver in a cave - but I wouldn't trust an arrogant, overconfident, complacent version of either... anywhere.

---------- Post added October 23rd, 2013 at 07:03 PM ----------

And Gods bless NE boats for that. Anyone who has come to Hawaii will understand what I mean.

Well, the good news is my experience is that if you are a NJ diver and travel anyplace else in the world... they pretty much let you "do your own thing." I think they're so afraid that will scare the other passengers, loot the wreck, and steal their wives/girlfriends that they just stay out of our way.

Here's my buddy coming back from a morning shore dive at a well-known Cayman resort.

The dive op thought the water was too rough that day, but didn't bother telling us we couldn't dive. Must have been 50 guests complaining that the dive entrance was closed. We literally didn't know it was closed until we exited the water at the end of our dive and found the chain we had to climb over. "But how come those two guys got to go diving - that's not fair!" complained the other guests. To which the dive op responded "Those guys? They're from NJ." At which point the other 50 guests stopped complaining and went to the pool for the rest of the day.

:d

 

[Belmont]

One factor that probably played a role in this unfortunate event is narcosis.

A flimsy line gets cut on a sharp bulkhead. Add to that percolation from exhaust bubbles or a silt out from a nervous kick

and you have, associated with some narcosis, a deadly cocktail.

Were they not diving a a depth where narcosis is a stong possibility?

 

[Doppler]

I assume you'll admit that a wreck is nowhere near as line-friendly a place as a cave.

Why would you assume that? Perhaps it was because I wrote:

"Wrecks are organic entities and a whole order of magnitude more difficult in many ways than caves. I dive and teach in both and am way more on edge inside a wreck because there is no way to guarantee that the way you came in will be the best way to get out. That's not always the case, but I can honestly say that I have never been lost in a cave, even when laying new line... I have second-guessed my location in a wreck, even with a reel in my hand and a continuous line to the exit. Wrecks are way more challenging to navigate."

I believe that covers the bases... can I assume you do too?

---------- Post added October 23rd, 2013 at 08:05 PM ----------

A flimsy line gets cut on a sharp bulkhead...

Cave divers run flimsy lines in wrecks. Wreck divers use 2 mm equipment line (also known as static line) knotted every three metres.

You cannot load as much on a reel but that **** has some break strain and you can pull yourself out of a restriction with it... been there, done that, intend to do it again.

DON'T USE CAVE LINE IN A WRECK. Wrong tool for the job.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Well, the good news is my experience is that if you are a NJ diver and travel anyplace else in the world... they pretty much let you "do your own thing." I think they're so afraid that will scare the other passengers, loot the wreck, and steal their wives/girlfriends that they just stay out of our way.

Here's my buddy coming back from a morning shore dive at a well-known Cayman resort.

The dive op thought the water was too rough that day, but didn't bother telling us we couldn't dive. Must have been 50 guests complaining that the dive entrance was closed. We literally didn't know it was closed until we exited the water at the end of our dive and found the chain we had to climb over. "But how come those two guys got to go diving - that's not fair!" complained the other guests. To which the dive op responded "Those guys? They're from NJ." At which point the other 50 guests stopped complaining and went to the pool for the rest of the day.

:d

I've heard pretty much the same thing regarding divers from my area. It's a myth. Some dive ops will give you more latitude if they know you come from an area where the conditions are challenging, or that you're way qualified and experienced for the diving conditions they dive in. Others insist that you abide by their rules ... regardless of who you are or where you come from. I generally go with "their house, their rules" ... as a matter of courtesy, if not for more practical reasons. It's safe to assume that not every environment is going to offer the same potential risks as the ones you're used to ... even when conditions might appear to be far more benign ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[RJP]

I've heard pretty much the same thing regarding divers from my area. It's a myth. Some dive ops will give you more latitude if they know you come from an area where the conditions are challenging, or that you're way qualified and experienced for the diving conditions they dive in. Others insist that you abide by their rules ... regardless of who you are or where you come from. I generally go with "their house, their rules" ... as a matter of courtesy, if not for more practical reasons. It's safe to assume that not every environment is going to offer the same potential risks as the ones you're used to ... even when conditions might appear to be far more benign ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Oh, I agree. I'm fine playing by the house rules, and never expect to be able to "do my own thing" when I travel. That way I'm pleasantly surprised when I am able to. The main thing that I find we get when we travel is the respect - and related expectation - that we are self-sufficient divers that don't need hand-holding. That's nearly as good in my book.

 

[DoNotDstrb]

One factor that probably played a role in this unfortunate event is narcosis.

A flimsy line gets cut on a sharp bulkhead. Add to that percolation from exhaust bubbles or a silt out from a nervous kick

and you have, associated with some narcosis, a deadly cocktail.

Were they not diving a a depth where narcosis is a stong possibility?

I have not heard an exact location of where the body was found, but from the general descriptions in the papers and my familiarity with that wreck, I would say the depth was somewhere between around 110-120 FSW... They were not diving air and they were both fairly experienced, so I doubt they were narced at that depth.

---------- Post added October 24th, 2013 at 10:22 AM ----------

What do you mean by "knowingly and routinely" in your question? How much babysitting do you and/or other divers need? Here in NJ, dive boats are a water taxi service - we leave the dock at 7am, head to a certain wreck, stay there for a few hours, and come back. For some amount of money you can come with us, and while we're tied into the wreck... if you decide to strap your own tank to your back and jump off the boat we only ask that you be certified to dive to the depth of the wreck and provide/observe an accurate run time. Are we supposed to analyze your tanks? Check to make sure you have enough cutting instruments? Should I do a checkout dive with you to see if you can actually dive worth a damn? Who's definition of "dive worth a damn" should I use? I know people who have no formal deco certs who I'd trust my kids to dive the Doria with, and folks with umpteen formal tech/deco certs that I wouldn't personally do a Discover Scuba with.

Who's criteria should I use to determine whether you are equipped properly? To me, that means BP/W (no bungies of death) single continuous webbing, standard gasses, a couple of reels (nothing with triggers or crazy set-ups) two SMBs, backup mask, SPG clipped to left hip d-ring, etc, etc.

We don't put a guide in the water. We don't plan your dive. Hell, we don't even provide a dive briefing! How do we know whether you are or intend to engage in unsafe activities when you're in the water?

Sure, if you come out with us once and prove yourself to be a hazard to yourself or others you'll not be welcome back. Just don't know how we can vigilantly and proactively screen and manage for that.

Its not a question of how much babysitting I or anyone else "needs" --- its a question of integrity and character.

If a boat wants to be just a taxi, as you describe, and bills themselves as such and every diver understands that they are on their own, I'm 100% fine with that..... In fact, I like those boats. You've described MY boat.

OTOH, if a boat wants to give dive briefings, give advice as to do's and dont's, have rules as to what is and isn't allowed on the dive AND THEN breaks those rules for people they "know" or "like"....... THAT, in my opinion, is indicative of an attitude and lack of discipline that I really don't like and when I have observed crews that behave that way for long enough, that attitude has eventually turned into some really unsafe stuff.

If you have rules, follow them.... If you aren't going to follow them, then don't have any. Either way is fine with me as long as everyone knows the rules or lack thereof and therefore can adjust their behavior and planning accordingly.

 

[Doppler]

... I would say the depth was somewhere between around 110-120 FSW... They were not diving air and they were both fairly experienced, so I doubt they were narced at that depth.

I would suggest we consider other factors than the partial pressure of nitrogen when we assess the role of narcosis. Specifically, stressors such as finding your buddy "gone" and carbon dioxide build-up. Cannot say these factors or others played a part in this incident, but narcosis is an odd thing and sometimes even a bucket full of helium doesn't ally its effects completely.

 

[kwinter]

Cave divers run flimsy lines in wrecks. Wreck divers use 2 mm equipment line (also known as static line) knotted every three metres.
.

I have been diving NJ wrecks for a lot of years and I have never seen knotted line used. Maybe it would be used for surveying a wreck (if that's done) like I've used in cave surveys. I'm not sure who Steve has been diving with that uses knotted line in wrecks. Also, most NE wreck divers have no idea how to run a reel, and a popular wreck dive ends up looking like a spider web of loose line inside and out. It gets very scary to dive with people who think running a line is important, but don't know how to do it properly.

 

[Superlyte27]

so, if you are carrying a pony, would you begin your ascent when you reach standard rock bottom in your backgas? So you keep the normal reserves that you would if you didn't have the pony at all, and the pony is a second layer of insurance?

really!?!?!

 

[DoNotDstrb]

I would suggest we consider other factors than the partial pressure of nitrogen when we assess the role of narcosis. Specifically, stressors such as finding your buddy "gone" and carbon dioxide build-up. Cannot say these factors or others played a part in this incident, but narcosis is an odd thing and sometimes even a bucket full of helium doesn't ally its effects completely.

Agreed......