Diver missing on Spiegel Grove - Key Largo Florida

[cofford]

I think a lot of people underestimate the amount of gas needed to exit a wreck when things go sideways. As an example, I was diving a wreck this weekend in Nanaimo, BC. We were doing planned penetration/decompression dives at an average depth of 110'. My buddy and I were both on CCR, and carried AL80s of bailout bottom gas at all times. We clipped our bailout decompression gasses outside the wreck. I had an interesting discussion about how far we should penetrate based on our available gas with my Tech 2 instructor, who was also on the boat. At first thought, an 80 sounds like a lot of gas in reserve at that depth. But, consider:

1. You need to exit the wreck from max penetration on that gas
2. If things go sideways, it will take substantially longer to exit the wreck than it took to enter. This is especially true in a siltout/zero vis situation, which is what usually occurs.
3. You need to make a safe, controlled ascent using that gas to either the surface or your first deco gas

So, let's do the math. How long do you have to find the exit if you have a full AL80? 110' is ~4.3 ATA, and a failure has occurred, so even experienced divers are probably breathing at a 1.0 RMV. You would use 4.3 cubic feet per minute at 110'. I brought 100% oxygen as a deco gas, so I have to get to 20' at a safe ascent rate. That's 30' per minute with no stops. So, that's 3 minutes to ascend, at an average ATA of 2.95 (we'll use 3.0). The ascent portion would, then, consume 9 cubic feet. Let's add 3 minutes at depth to find the upline and grab deco bottles. That's 13 cubic feet. An AL80 actually holds 77 cubic feet at rated pressure, so we now have 77-22=55 cubic feet to use inside the wreck to find the exit.

Just to review, we will use:
9 cubic feet to ascend
13 cubic feet to find the upline and grab deco bottles

Which leaves:
55 cubic feet to find the exit

That gives us 55/4.3=13 minutes to find our way out in zero vis. 13 minutes, and that's with an AL80 that's full when the failure occurs. Not much time at all if you get lost. As you can see, an AL80 with a pony bottle is not even close to appropriate for these kinds of dives. And, I haven't reserved any gas for my buddy, or to cover a lost deco bottle.

 

[DevonDiver]

Too many words... most of which are irrelevant. Dive op's boat their rules. Your boat your rules. You can do any thing you feel capable of doing. Experience is gained by doing, not talking. Doing has hazards. Doing has do and don't. Training ether self or procured, helps establish these. In the end, decisions have to be made. If he had hold of the reel jammed or not, the line led out. Drop the reel and go. The diver had an analytical issue that he could not resolve. Depth, gas, time, who knows?

Oh.... you're a fan of "roll the dice" diving. Nice...

 

[sterlunk]

Being one of the people who was on the boat there's something I observed first hand with respect to understanding what might have happened. The surviving buddy cannot be relied upon to provide accurate information due the stress and shock that person is experiencing. Entry points, exit points, max depth, lines used for descent/ascent and other critical information become confused. Reviewing the qualifications of each diver and their equipment immediately after something like this is pretty much a non-starter. All of us on that boat knew that a man was in the processes of dying from the moment the surviving buddy returned alone. A distraught buddy accompanied by a grieving girlfriend (she dove with the guide) makes for a poor environment to get accurate information.

Bearing in mind that the two penetrating divers were on their own and operated that way I can answer a couple of questions that have been posted. The ponies were mounted to their primary tanks. I believe the primary tanks were steel. Can't say for certain what capacity they were or what kind of connector the tanks had. The tanks were labeled for nitrox. I did not observe any deco or additional bail out tanks. The total dive time for the surviving buddy was 59 minutes (he read this from his computer). He said he had 600 lbs of gas remaining upon return but I can't say if that was from his primary or pony. Sorry I can't provide more useful information. Prior to the incident I was paying attention to my buddy and our dive plan.

Lesson: there's a threshold where rescue is not possible if something goes wrong. Only recovery. For the missing diver that threshold was crossed the day he and his buddy chartered the dive boat.

Sterling

 

[iluvtheocean]

i agree it was a tragedy and i am sorry that the diver died
if they wanted to do penetration with the deco a 59 min dive time (time taken from sterlunk's post) would incur - -- they should have booked it on a tech trip where they could have taken the proper equipment - not on a regular rec dive where they had lie about what they wanted to do...

 

[DoNotDstrb]

I feel horrible for the family and friends of Capt Dragojevich. I truly hope his tragic death serves the purpose of being a learning experience for any diver contemplating any similar dive without the proper equipment and training and that his death ultimately helps save other lives.

That said... I'm sorry if this sounds callous..... but ANY dive in ANY overhead environment whether hard (wreck or cave) or soft (OW deco) that DOES NOT include 100% redundant equipment and a 100% surplus of gas built into the DETAILED dive plan is a fatality waiting to happen. Double tanks with isolation manifold and two 1st/2nd stage regs, PLUS redundant buoyancy (BC+lift bag or dual independent bladder BC) and navigation aids such as lights, reels, line are ALL MINIMUM equipment for a wreck penetration even under no-deco conditions. If the dive is ALSO a deco dive, add appropriate stage cylinders to "all that".......

Anyone that engages in such an activity without the proper equipment, planning, and training can expect to die or have his/her buddy die at any time and should not be surprised when it happens.

IMHO, training agencies these days spend too much time selling the "fun" aspects of diving and too little time on "101 ways to DIE diving and HOW TO AVOID IT" --- That should be the title of a chapter in every agency's open water manual.

 

[boulderjohn]

i agree it was a tragedy and i am sorry that the diver died
if they wanted to do penetration with the deco a 59 min dive time (time taken from sterlunk's post) would incur - -- they should have booked it on a tech trip where they could have taken the proper equipment - not on a regular rec dive where they had lie about what they wanted to do...

That was my feeling, and that was what I wrote earlier. However, it appears as if they might not have had to lie about it. Based on this post and its linked article, which I did not read carefully enough before, I am adjusting my opinion.

A quote from one of the news stories "Scuba-Do’s dive master on the trip, Kimberly Chapman, told a Monroe County Sheriff’s deputy that the passengers were briefed before entering the water that there would be no penetration of the Spiegel Grover or “decompression diving” during this trip. In the sheriff’s office report, Chapman stated that Dragojevich and Dorminy told her that they were entering the engine room on the Siegel Grove with guide reels."

I'm not blaming the op, but I think the op was aware of what they were going to do even though they gave instructions to the contrary in the dive briefing.


Read more here: Missing diver found dead in the wreck of the USS Spiegel Grove in the Keys - Florida Keys - MiamiHerald.com

This was their second dive of the day on the ship, and, according to that article their average depth for the dive had to be in the vicinity of 100 feet. The article said that they were not carrying enough gas to do the dive. Based on the other information about the dive time, and taking some wild speculation about dive times, tank sizes (I assumed big), and SAC rates, I would agree that they really barely had enough gas to do the dive. They certainly did not have enough gas to deal with any emergencies effectively.

So let's assume that the operator did indeed know that they were planning that penetration, as the article said they did. That means the operator knowingly allowed people doing the second dive of the day to do a penetration dive at 100 feet without truly adequate gas reserves or proper equipment. If so...well, you draw your own conclusions.

For those of you who have a program like V-Planner, put in some reasonable guesses for the two dives in terms of depth, nitrox mix, bottom time,SAC rates, surface intervals, etc., and see what you get.

 

[DoNotDstrb]

That was my feeling, and that was what I wrote earlier. However, it appears as if they might not have had to lie about it. Based on this post and its linked article, which I did not read carefully enough before, I am adjusting my opinion.



This was their second dive of the day on the ship, and, according to that article their average depth for the dive had to be in the vicinity of 100 feet. The article said that they were not carrying enough gas to do the dive. Based on the other information about the dive time, and taking some wild speculation about dive times, tank sizes (I assumed big), and SAC rates, I would agree that they really barely had enough gas to do the dive. They certainly did not have enough gas to deal with any emergencies effectively.

So let's assume that the operator did indeed know that they were planning that penetration, as the article said they did. That means the operator knowingly allowed people doing the second dive of the day to do a penetration dive at 100 feet without truly adequate gas reserves or proper equipment. If so...well, you draw your own conclusions.

For those of you who have a program like V-Planner, put in some reasonable guesses for the two dives in terms of depth, nitrox mix, bottom time,SAC rates, surface intervals, etc., and see what you get.

I know Scuba-Do and all other dive operators in the Port Largo area quite well and can tell you with little doubt that:

1) On all wreck dives they DO brief and repeat often the prohibition against wreck penetration beyond a swim-though where the exit is clearly visible and NO light is needed....

and

2) Had the unfortunate dive team in question directly told the captain or mate that "We ARE going to penetrate the wreck beyond visible exits..." -- they would not have been allowed to dive.

All that said.... the true significance of a casual mention of a reel and an (engine?) room to or within earshot of a divemaster that is trying to do 10 things at once (been there, done that) can easily be overlooked as a joke, BS, or whatever....... specially when the divers are CLEARLY not equipped for anything like that.

I don't believe Scuba-Do did anything wrong here. I'm sure they conducted a proper briefing as they always do... but once people get in the water, they are free to do what they want..... however stupid it may be.

 

[boulderjohn]

I am sure they made that briefing to the general population. No question about it.

When I dive with many operators, I hear many similar rules about the dives. I also know that ones who know me and my credentials will quietly let me know that those rules don't all pertain to me.

I have been on many boats listening to the general warnings given to everyone, knowing that my buddy and I were going to do something different, with the full knowledge and approval of the boat crew.

 

[Wookie]

I have been on many boats listening to the general warnings given to everyone, knowing that my buddy and I were going to do something different, with the full knowledge and approval of the boat crew.

You assume you had full knowledge and approval of the boat crew. We are not the scuba police, nor do we want to be. In reality, we give the briefing telling you the rules of the dive. If you choose to disregard the briefing, we will not sit you out or punish you, but we will put you on our "boat's full" list. You will not be welcome back, because, in essence, you've just told the Captain, who has seen more than a few folks die stupidly, and the Divemaster, who has had to drag the dead stinking bodies of said stupid divers back to the boat, to go take a flying f**k in a rolling doughnut.

With my attitude, there are more than a few folks on the "boat's full" list, and many more who wouldn't come with me if I offered the last wreck trek in the world. It's all good. We do offer proper wreck penetration training. We'll be offering it on 3 trips next year.

 

[boulderjohn]

You assume you had full knowledge and approval of the boat crew. We are not the scuba police, nor do we want to be. In reality, we give the briefing telling you the rules of the dive. If you choose to disregard the briefing, we will not sit you out or punish you, but we will put you on our "boat's full" list.

No assumptions. I am talking about things arranged in advance. They knew what we wanted to do before we got on the boat, and they said it as OK. If they had not said it was OK, we would not have done it. I have never gone against a stated policy without clear permission.