Diver missing on Spiegel Grove - Key Largo Florida

[DevonDiver]

I understand how people die when they don't run line, or if they silt themselves out. But to die from a tangled reel is something I just can't wrap my head around.

It's not so hard to wrap your head around, if you replace "or" with "and"...

Silt-out plus just about any other problem arising is beyond the training and experience of most divers (including those at 'specialty' level wreck).

I'm in the water near-daily with trainee wreck divers of varied levels. People do struggle with the stuff that might appear 'easy'. With ALL recreational divers, and SOME technical divers... if you add inconsistent (less than 100% perfect) buoyancy to a tangled reel... and a little slack allowed on the line, then you get entanglement. If trim isn't dialed down, then you add a silt-out also. It's quite predictable... and that's worrying.

I put my income where my mouth is on this subject some time ago. I now only advertise/market my PADI 'wreck specialty' course as introduction-only training. I probably lose some business because of that. There's no mandate demanding redundant air, no emergency training (as Doppler so effectively illustrates the need for) and no zero-visibility practice (black mask).... and only 1 penetration dive (insufficient). Ethically and honestly, I could never tell a student that this training 'qualified' them for wreck penetration, even with caveats/recommendations applied. It disgusts me that so many instructors do.... As for the agencies that allow/encourage it....

 

[buton]

I understand how people die when they don't run line, or if they silt themselves out. But to die from a tangled reel is something I just can't wrap my head around.

It's not so hard to wrap your head around, if you replace "or" with "and"...

Silt-out plus just about any other problem arising is beyond the training and experience of most divers (including those at 'specialty' level wreck).

I'm in the water near-daily with trainee wreck divers of varied levels. People do struggle with the stuff that might appear 'easy'. With ALL recreational divers, and SOME technical divers... if you add inconsistent (less than 100% perfect) buoyancy to a tangled reel... and a little slack allowed on the line, then you get entanglement. If trim isn't dialed down, then you add a silt-out also. It's quite predictable... and that's worrying.

I put my income where my mouth is on this subject some time ago. I now only advertise/market my PADI 'wreck specialty' course as introduction-only training. I probably lose some business because of that. There's no mandate demanding redundant air, no emergency training (as Doppler so effectively illustrates the need for) and no zero-visibility practice (black mask).... and only 1 penetration dive (insufficient). Ethically and honestly, I could never tell a student that this training 'qualified' them for wreck penetration, even with caveats/recommendations applied. It disgusts me that so many instructors do.... As for the agencies that allow/encourage it....

Totally agree with you

 

[iluvtheocean]

I was about to ask exactly that when you posted. As far as I can recall, the dive operators I've gone to the Spiegel with admonish "no penetration."

Are dive ops going to have to ban lights and reels the way some do for OW divers in cave areas?

---------- Post added October 18th, 2013 at 05:04 PM ----------



PONY BOTTLES? More like doubles ... and then some.

for how much they were penetrating i would agree on doubles and then some -- i referenced a pony simply as an example of trying to plan your air -- what you actually should take should be appropriate for what you are doing plus plenty for reserve. personally i wouldn't have even attempted to enter myself - i know i don't have the training or the EQ for penetration and i don't feel suicidal at this time.

 

[JamesK]

for how much they were penetrating i would agree on doubles and then some -- i referenced a pony simply as an example of trying to plan your air -- what you actually should take should be appropriate for what you are doing plus plenty for reserve. personally i wouldn't have even attempted to enter myself - i know i don't have the training or the EQ for penetration and i don't feel suicidal at this time.

Smart decision, you are the type of diver I like.

As for pony bottles, they should NEVER be part of a gas management plan.

 

[TSandM]

As for pony bottles, they should NEVER be part of a gas management plan.

I don't use a pony at all, so this may seem like a dumb question, but it was always my thought that, if someone DID use a pony, it would be planned to serve as their "rock bottom" reserve, and therefore WOULD be part of a gas plan.

 

[Wookie]

I don't use a pony at all, so this may seem like a dumb question, but it was always my thought that, if someone DID use a pony, it would be planned to serve as their "rock bottom" reserve, and therefore WOULD be part of a gas plan.

I do use a pony, for every single tank recreational dive. The gas in the pony is NEVER calculated into my gas planning. That isn't what ponies are for. Ponies are for having a redundant gas supply to reach the surface on a direct ascent in the event of a failure of your primary reg or gas supply. They are not to give you time to think, or time to fiddle with your regulator, or time to fix your blown o-ring, or any of those other things that folks think ponies are for. Ponies are for putting in your mouth and clearing, taking a sanity breath as you start your 60 FPM ascent, and getting to the surface alive. Ponies are for carrying the same gas as your back gas, so you don't have to think about your depth. They are not for a deco mix or a deep mix or any other kind of mix. If you are in any kind of overhead, whether real (cave or wreck) or procedural (deco) and using a pony for gas management, you need to go punch your instructor in the face as hard as you can, because he taught you something that would and could kill you.

 

[kwinter]

you need to go punch your instructor in the face as hard as you can, because he taught you something that would and could kill you.

Don't hold back, Frank. Tell us how you really feel.

 

[TSandM]

So, if you are carrying a pony, would you begin your ascent when you reach standard rock bottom in your backgas? So you keep the normal reserves that you would if you didn't have the pony at all, and the pony is a second layer of insurance?

 

[Wookie]

So, if you are carrying a pony, would you begin your ascent when you reach standard rock bottom in your backgas? So you keep the normal reserves that you would if you didn't have the pony at all, and the pony is a second layer of insurance?

For me, exactly. It's my only layer of insurance in the event of a primary gas failure. Blown regulator diaphragm, freeflowing reg, blown o-ring (not likely with DIN), blown hose, etc. It does not figure into my rock bottom gas planning. I check my pony pressure before every dive. I fill my pony once per year. I dive with it charged and open, since I can't easily reach the valve the way it's mounted. The pony reg is the one on my necklace.

---------- Post added October 21st, 2013 at 02:13 PM ----------

Don't hold back, Frank. Tell us how you really feel.

Really? Am I in the habit of holding back?

 

[OkByMe]

Too many words... most of which are irrelevant. Dive op's boat their rules. Your boat your rules. You can do any thing you feel capable of doing. Experience is gained by doing, not talking. Doing has hazards. Doing has do and don't. Training ether self or procured, helps establish these. In the end, decisions have to be made. If he had hold of the reel jammed or not, the line led out. Drop the reel and go. The diver had an analytical issue that he could not resolve. Depth, gas, time, who knows?