Thanks for the info Don. I appreciate you posting for those who have not been able.
Willie
Willie
Diver drowns on Dive Boat Karen, Brooklyn, NY
- Thread starter El Tiburon
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all4scuba05
Contributor
I for one know that if I lost my brother to a diving accident, I would not be going to a diver's forum after. Does anyone know why family members visit this forum in the first place?
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I think so - to see what's being said about their family members. Lots of folks would if they knew, the main reason we don't use names, so we won't pop-up on a net search of the deceased's name.all4scuba05:
all4scuba05
Contributor
If that's true then it's a sad way to live a life. Worried about what strangers 1000 miles away think about my brother. To each his own. If I lost my brother, I grieve. I don't go looking to find out what people think of him. There's too much of a chance that their opinion would just put more salt on the wound.
My condolences to all friends and family members who are affected by this tragedy.
My condolences to all friends and family members who are affected by this tragedy.
TSherman
Contributor
I am happy the man's body was found. That should help the family with some closure. I would like to see that post from the crew member before this post is closed. I believe the Captain and Crew have the right to tell their story and the brother more than has the right to read and write any post here. My saddest regrets to the family and friends of this diver and my sympathy to all those involved.
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I received this email today from the cousin of the lost dive...
The primary reason for this forum is so we can learn from the losses of others. I have always surfaced with my right hand up to wave and left hand on my BC hose - which I had been using to dump expanding air on ascent, then used immediately to fill the BC for flotation, or to dump again if I happen to see a jet ski or boat approaching.
I think I'll add a routine: As soon as I have waved - ok or otherwise, then reach to grab a weight pocket. Should I ever need to dump weights, I want to be in the habit of having my hand already on the first one. so many accidents and losses happen on the surface.
As we had feared, looks like he sank with his weights on.
The primary reason for this forum is so we can learn from the losses of others. I have always surfaced with my right hand up to wave and left hand on my BC hose - which I had been using to dump expanding air on ascent, then used immediately to fill the BC for flotation, or to dump again if I happen to see a jet ski or boat approaching.
I think I'll add a routine: As soon as I have waved - ok or otherwise, then reach to grab a weight pocket. Should I ever need to dump weights, I want to be in the habit of having my hand already on the first one. so many accidents and losses happen on the surface.
JEScholz
Contributor
Again, My condolences to the family and friends of this diver. Perhaps his loss will be the lesson others remember and use to prevent future tragedies.
Dandy Don, did you ever receive information to post from the crew on the dive boat? I would like to hear their perspective on the event and find out if a trail line was out?
Dandy Don, did you ever receive information to post from the crew on the dive boat? I would like to hear their perspective on the event and find out if a trail line was out?
My name is al marvelli and i am a member of the crew of the dive boat karen. i have been trying for some time to post a statement regarding this thread but have not been able to do so until now. THis statement is my own and should not be considered to be the words or statements of anyone else.
first i would like to say that i am deeply sorry for the loss of this young man, whom i knew casually for at least three years now.I have not been able to personally convey my condolences to the family members in person but would like to do so now.
second i would like to describe the dive setup of the boat. a grapple hook anchor is tied to the wrek under water. this line leads up to the bow of the boat. a second line is placed from the bow to the stern where the ladder is. A third line extends off the stern to a dive flag and float. The second and third lines are made of material that floats and are yellow. There is a line reel on the stern of the boat that holds extra line, in 100 ft lengths, i believe 9 of them in total. This line has eyes and snaps braided into it so that it can be put together to make a long line or used in shorter sections as needed. There is an orange sit on top kayak on the side of the vessel and a dive flag on the main mast. The vessel also has safety equipment like life jackets, life rings, water lights, life raft,etc as required by the uscg under subchapter t.
Third i would like to relay the events of that day as best as i can so that others might understand what happened somewhat better. there are some factual errors regarding distance and direction which have confused the issues somewhat.
that day we had a full moon and the tide was nearing the end of the slack water, such as it was. offshore there is often no true slack water, but merely a period of time when the current lessens before turning direction. i believe that the current had already begun to run before anyone entered the water.
The primary mate that day had jumped on the warrior and decided visibility was not good, we then went to the turner wrek where he reported visbiltyof 6 to 8 ft. with a strong surface current in the first twenty feet of the water column. There was also a three to four ft chop on the surface. we had three teams of two buddies who were diving ow recreational wrek dives and two students who were to do dives with me<I am also an instructor>.
the first three teams entered the water before me and no one seemed to have a problem in the current. i entered the water and decided that i would dive with one student at a time because of the current. We decended and after only about ten minutes my student decided to call the dive, no problem. While my second student was entering the water i saw the victims brother on deck asking if the victim had returned because he had lost him and couldnt findhim after searching a few minutes.
my student had an ear problem and called the dive without decending past 20 fsw. we returned to the boat approximately two minutes later, at which time the capt asked me to search the wrek for the missing diver because his bubbles were not present in the area of the wrek.I decended to the wrek and searched for approx 18 minutes, without finding a trace of the diver.
When i returned to the surface i knew immediately that something was very wrong. The emergency trail line and dive flag were deployed to their full length, 300 yards or900ft. The current was going strait behind the boat,but the line was at a 45 degree angle from the boat, because there were four divers struggling to keep the flag over a certain spot.
The capt stated to me that the victim had surfaced, waved and called for help, approximatelt 150 yards from the stern quarter of the vessel, on the port side. The captain stated that he had saw the divers bubbles about one minute prior to this event and that the bubbles were going perpendicular to the current prior to the surfacing. The captain stated that the victim was in a non responsive state first yelling and then not yelling for about thirty seconds prior to the victim submerging in about the spot that the others were trying to mark.
eventually we were able to get the victims brother into the kayak<which it was discovered i am too fat to ride on> and out to mark the spot with the float.we then moved the boat to this spot<which required the primary mate to pull our hook> and i went and searched on the bottom for about 40 minutes on the stbd side of the boat. the primary mate<who was one of the people trying to swim the line out>searched on the port side, while the capt maintained surface watch and called uscg and nypd, who responded promptly and ordered us to discontinue searching and return to port while they continued to search.
During his search the other mate ran out of air and did a cesa. after which he had numbness in his hands which he did not seek treatment for until the next day. after two table 6 rides he has recovered fully.
A week later crew members returned to the site and performed another 18 search dives in the area with negative result. Weather conditions prevented a search before this.
I am not going to respond to flames or comments by non involved third parties, im just not into that.I feel we did what we could given the information that was available to us at the time. It is easy to sit and say 'well they should have ....xyz" but if you werent there you cant understand, and if you have been there, then you just know.
again to any friends or family who may read this, i am very sorry for your loss.
respectfully,
al marvelli
first i would like to say that i am deeply sorry for the loss of this young man, whom i knew casually for at least three years now.I have not been able to personally convey my condolences to the family members in person but would like to do so now.
second i would like to describe the dive setup of the boat. a grapple hook anchor is tied to the wrek under water. this line leads up to the bow of the boat. a second line is placed from the bow to the stern where the ladder is. A third line extends off the stern to a dive flag and float. The second and third lines are made of material that floats and are yellow. There is a line reel on the stern of the boat that holds extra line, in 100 ft lengths, i believe 9 of them in total. This line has eyes and snaps braided into it so that it can be put together to make a long line or used in shorter sections as needed. There is an orange sit on top kayak on the side of the vessel and a dive flag on the main mast. The vessel also has safety equipment like life jackets, life rings, water lights, life raft,etc as required by the uscg under subchapter t.
Third i would like to relay the events of that day as best as i can so that others might understand what happened somewhat better. there are some factual errors regarding distance and direction which have confused the issues somewhat.
that day we had a full moon and the tide was nearing the end of the slack water, such as it was. offshore there is often no true slack water, but merely a period of time when the current lessens before turning direction. i believe that the current had already begun to run before anyone entered the water.
The primary mate that day had jumped on the warrior and decided visibility was not good, we then went to the turner wrek where he reported visbiltyof 6 to 8 ft. with a strong surface current in the first twenty feet of the water column. There was also a three to four ft chop on the surface. we had three teams of two buddies who were diving ow recreational wrek dives and two students who were to do dives with me<I am also an instructor>.
the first three teams entered the water before me and no one seemed to have a problem in the current. i entered the water and decided that i would dive with one student at a time because of the current. We decended and after only about ten minutes my student decided to call the dive, no problem. While my second student was entering the water i saw the victims brother on deck asking if the victim had returned because he had lost him and couldnt findhim after searching a few minutes.
my student had an ear problem and called the dive without decending past 20 fsw. we returned to the boat approximately two minutes later, at which time the capt asked me to search the wrek for the missing diver because his bubbles were not present in the area of the wrek.I decended to the wrek and searched for approx 18 minutes, without finding a trace of the diver.
When i returned to the surface i knew immediately that something was very wrong. The emergency trail line and dive flag were deployed to their full length, 300 yards or900ft. The current was going strait behind the boat,but the line was at a 45 degree angle from the boat, because there were four divers struggling to keep the flag over a certain spot.
The capt stated to me that the victim had surfaced, waved and called for help, approximatelt 150 yards from the stern quarter of the vessel, on the port side. The captain stated that he had saw the divers bubbles about one minute prior to this event and that the bubbles were going perpendicular to the current prior to the surfacing. The captain stated that the victim was in a non responsive state first yelling and then not yelling for about thirty seconds prior to the victim submerging in about the spot that the others were trying to mark.
eventually we were able to get the victims brother into the kayak<which it was discovered i am too fat to ride on> and out to mark the spot with the float.we then moved the boat to this spot<which required the primary mate to pull our hook> and i went and searched on the bottom for about 40 minutes on the stbd side of the boat. the primary mate<who was one of the people trying to swim the line out>searched on the port side, while the capt maintained surface watch and called uscg and nypd, who responded promptly and ordered us to discontinue searching and return to port while they continued to search.
During his search the other mate ran out of air and did a cesa. after which he had numbness in his hands which he did not seek treatment for until the next day. after two table 6 rides he has recovered fully.
A week later crew members returned to the site and performed another 18 search dives in the area with negative result. Weather conditions prevented a search before this.
I am not going to respond to flames or comments by non involved third parties, im just not into that.I feel we did what we could given the information that was available to us at the time. It is easy to sit and say 'well they should have ....xyz" but if you werent there you cant understand, and if you have been there, then you just know.
again to any friends or family who may read this, i am very sorry for your loss.
respectfully,
al marvelli
all4scuba05
Contributor
well done and thankyou for taking the time to come here and clarify some things...
JEScholz
Contributor
Al, Thanks so much for the post! I can't imagine what you are going through but getting the FACTS out there is the right thing to do. It is obvious that the boat was well equiped and everything that could be done was done. Thank you for speaking up and sharing the incident. We may never know what caused this tragedy but it is a reminder to all of us who dive that personal health / fitness, equipment, training and knowing when to call a dive is up to each of us individually. My hat is off to your students for knowing when to call thier dive when they did not feel comfortable. If more of us did that, there would be fewer tragedies and near misses to read about. Again, I offer my condolences to all the family, friends and parties involved in this tragic incident.
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