Diver drowns on Dive Boat Karen, Brooklyn, NY

[rigdiver]

Condolences to family, friends and boat crew. Thank you Al for the first hand report. All too often the certifying agency's insurance company's lawyers tell all SCUBA professionals involved to "refrain from discussing" and refer all inquiries to "them."
Thanks;
Bill

 

[RayJayJr]

You are reading criticism into my post that isn't there.

The victim is dead. Nothing can change that.

The only good that can come out of a discussion is for us to reflect upon our diving practices.

Running a tagline far downcurrent in such a situation is not a universally accepted practice, but it also isn't unheard of. Indeed, I was swimming crosscurrent on the Spiegel Grove a couple years ago after aborting a dive and coming up on a buoy other than where the boat was moored and was met midway by a DM in snorkel gear and a tagline in hand. Although he then took off downcurrent to get others and I wasn't able to use the line as an assist, that line was there downcurrent in case I wasn't able to crab over to the boat.

Not exactly sure why everyone is intent on ripping you a new one on here...I understand what you're saying in principle.

While the token sympathy in a large portion of the threads posted in here are fantastic - I'd argue its no more productive to boo hoo and wee wee wee all the way home any more than it is to make reasonable observations on what could have possibly led to the fatal mistake.


It sounds like the crew did just about everything they could - but I personally still hold them accountable for anything that happens on their shift. By and large, not being critical of the situation, regardless of how much information you have, is probably better than saying nothing at all and waiting 3 weeks, or 3 months before all the information is availible. Watching bubbles is a passive activity, but I'm suprised not one person on that crew was investigative enough to engage a more active role in ensuring the divers safety. I seem to have come accross a fatal trend of passive observance - mirrored in many of the fatal and non-fatal accidents listed on these boards.

 

[JEScholz]

Not exactly sure why everyone is intent on ripping you a new one on here...I understand what you're saying in principle.

While the token sympathy in a large portion of the threads posted in here are fantastic - I'd argue its no more productive to boo hoo and wee wee wee all the way home any more than it is to make reasonable observations on what could have possibly led to the fatal mistake.

I for one do not consider the sympathy a "token" gesture! These threads are often read by friends and family menbers trying to gain a better understanding of how the death could have happened. Speculation on could have, should have and I would have, when you were not part of the incident should be kept to your self.

 

[DandyDon]

I for one do not consider the sympathy a "token" gesture! These threads are often read by friends and family menbers trying to gain a better understanding of how the death could have happened. Speculation on could have, should have and I would have, when you were not part of the incident should be kept to your self.

Very well said...!!

I'd like to see you post that more often on more of these threads - or I may steal it from you...?

Well, I will offer some speculations on what might have happened, - just as an exploration toward what it could have been, but I do avoid trying to place blame or accuse anyone of wrongs. When I falter there, I am wrong.

 

[Mr.X]

Not exactly sure why everyone is intent on ripping you a new one on here...I understand what you're saying in principle.

While the token sympathy in a large portion of the threads posted in here are fantastic - I'd argue its no more productive to boo hoo and wee wee wee all the way home any more than it is to make reasonable observations on what could have possibly led to the fatal mistake.


It sounds like the crew did just about everything they could - but I personally still hold them accountable for anything that happens on their shift. By and large, not being critical of the situation, regardless of how much information you have, is probably better than saying nothing at all and waiting 3 weeks, or 3 months before all the information is availible. Watching bubbles is a passive activity, but I'm suprised not one person on that crew was investigative enough to engage a more active role in ensuring the divers safety. I seem to have come accross a fatal trend of passive observance - mirrored in many of the fatal and non-fatal accidents listed on these boards.

Interesting. Sure you're 18? I can almost guarantee that you have not been on a NE dive boat. So let's not flap wind here.

 

[EastEndDiver]

Interesting. Sure you're 18? I can almost guarantee that you have not been on a NE dive boat. So let's not flap wind here.

Amen to that .And most of the other people who have never dove in the N.E. Have NO idea .

 

[DandyDon]

Amen to that .And most of the other people who have never dove in the N.E. Have NO idea .

Nope. I know from my Seattle dives that tidal currents are a totally different ride than say the Cozumel current. But I have never dived there, and I'm sure it's differentl.

Rbolander hasn't dived anywhere, btw. He was good enough to complete his profile showing that he is an OW student. I hope he takes a lot from this thread that will benefit him in the world. I am glad he's reading and paying attention, even if he may be unqualified for much comment.

You can add your location, experience, training, etc to yours if you'd like, EastEnd. They finally got it fixed.

 

[TSherman]

I would think that anyone trying to compare the beginner pool wreck of the Spiegel Grove diving practices to anything in the NE area already should know there place. If they don't they can PM me and I will tell them. Leave the speculation to those trained in the area based from eye witness reports....not to warm pool divers.

I will second (or third or fourth) that there is nothing "token" about anyones sympathy. Secondly, there is nothing most of the ignorant posters may learn from this post anyway.....its not the same type of diving! Go back to your boards, leave these people alone.

I would hope the family and friends are able to be taken through these post to set the good from the bad. Most of these people couldn't and shouldn't dive the Pinta, so in turn have no reason to speculate on your loved one.

 

[divinotter]

Watching bubbles is a passive activity, but I'm suprised not one person on that crew was investigative enough to engage a more active role in ensuring the divers safety. I seem to have come accross a fatal trend of passive observance - mirrored in many of the fatal and non-fatal accidents listed on these boards.

I know the instinct of a new diver is to assume the ocean is like a swimming pool and the 'lifeguard' can watch the swimmer in trouble and just jump in to rescue him- after more time on the ocean in swell and more time in less visibility situations you will begin to realize that it just doesn't work that way- the ocean is a whole different ball game -even beach guards laugh when pool guards call themselves 'lifeguards' and they are on the beach not in the middle of the ocean. Watching bubbles is not passive - it's extremely important- and HELPFUL- when you practice some man overboard drills or take a real rescue class with ocean conditions- then I would like you to post again and tell us how silly you feel when you say rescuers are being passive by watching bubbles. Would you seriously think it would help for every person on the boat to jump off and start chasing fantom bubbles that could be coming from any direction or depth and have a whole ocean full of people to watch not to mention countless more victims?? Think about what you are saying and what you would truly do in this situation and not what you would do in your OW class in the swimming pool.

 

[RayJayJr]

Nope. I know from my Seattle dives that tidal currents are a totally different ride than say the Cozumel current. But I have never dived there, and I'm sure it's differentl.

Rbolander hasn't dived anywhere, btw. He was good enough to complete his profile showing that he is an OW student. I hope he takes a lot from this thread that will benefit him in the world. I am glad he's reading and paying attention, even if he may be unqualified for much comment.

Excellent work detective, unfortunately you neglected to account for the fact that the stats section has been broken for months on end and was only recently fixed about two weeks ago - None of my dive stats have been updated since I registered here. I can confidently tell you I'm no longer wading in the kiddie pool.

Interesting. Sure you're 18? I can almost guarantee that you have not been on a NE dive boat. So let's not flap wind here.

18? Yes. Are you sugessting I'm wading in youthful ignorance? Perhaps you should say what you mean.

I do not agree with your implied analysis that I require any FURTHER experience diving (apart from the experience that you know nothing of) to be able to tell you that it sounds like something on that boat was not right if all they chose to do initially was watch bubbles until the guy was 150 feet away from the boat (under tidal current, right?), when they were already under the assumption that he could have possibly been low on air. I am certainly in no opposition to the fact that watching the bubbles was the right thing to do - But I DO NOT agree that because they did mostly everything, that the captain, crew and dive operation is absolved from responsibility on some level, or that the thread should be simply left "at that".

I'm questioning the accident because I think the family has a right to see that not everyone agrees with the initial analysis. Perhaps a change in dive operator policy should be suggested, perhaps not.

I'm sorry that a *few* of you feel the need to disqualify my comments based on incorrect information regarding my experience and qualifications. Please take the issue up with a moderator if you are so exceedingly concerned with my thoughts on this incident.