Diver drowns on Dive Boat Karen, Brooklyn, NY

[Kim]

****Moderator Post****​

Hi everyone,
I have been contacted via via about this thread as it's causing some unintended anguish where none is intended.

First, to the family members who might be reading these posts as 'guests' - I would like to extend my deepest sympathy and condolences for the loss of this person. It's clear that as with everyone, there's always a human reality that's actually real behind the surface 'story'. On this board we are all divers and we really know that to be true. The last thing on anyones mind is to cause more pain and upset than is already present.
However, that said, BECAUSE we are all divers when things go wrong we try hard to work out why and how to possibly prevent it in the future. We don't want people to keep repeating mistakes and causing more deaths that sometimes could have been avoided. I'm not saying one way or the other if this accident was like that - many aren't the first time they happen....but we hate repeats. Trying to understand diving accidents is often very difficult and can involve speculation. Mostly many of the facts are unknown, or not shared by those that do know. This means that serious people make honest efforts to imagine what could have happened, given what is known - all the while aware that they are actually 'best guessing'. This isn't lying or being disrespectful to the victim - it's simply an attempt to identify possibilities, and address how those possibilities could be dealt with to reduce/remove the risks involved. That is all I have seen happen in this thread. There has been some speculative comment for sure, some of which with new 'real' information can be discounted as a causal factor in what happened. No one has been intentionally mean though.
The fact is though that accidents will be discussed in places like this and I can imagine reading such discussions could be distressing for the family. We don't allow use of names but for the rest the incidents are a matter of public record. Whether families choose to read such discussions is a matter for them to decide. Correcting errors when they actually know more facts than have been available is extremely helpful and welcome. Please feel free to contact me personally (or through DandyDon as you already know how to reach him!)

Secondly,
I have actually been asked to delete certain posts in the thread. Right now I can't see how to do that without destroying the context of the discussion. If I receive PMs suggesting ways to edit the thread while maintaining it's coherency I'm more than prepared to take them under consideration.

 

[EastEndDiver]

Secondly,
I have actually been asked to delete certain posts in the thread. Right now I can't see how to do that without destroying the context of the discussion. If I receive PMs suggesting ways to edit the thread while maintaining it's coherency I'm more than prepared to take them under consideration.



Why not just delete the offending parts for the sake of those that are offended,which are probably the family members.They are the ones who have sustained a great tragic loss.They deserve that consideration.

 

[bruce119]

This accident has been on my mine since it happen. I feel the need to give my opinion and speak my mind.

First I want to express my sorrow for the family. I know it is a difficult time.

About the accident and as mentioned mostly all we can do is speculate it may help some one else avoiding the same thing. I know it's all been said before but I have the need to speak.

It sounds like maybe he ran out of air could not inflate BC swam to the surface was heavy couldn't establish buoyancy panicked and failed to drop weights. This is all speculation and a possible real scenario. All the obvious points have been discussed watch your gages, surface when separated and so on.

The thing I wanted to point out is dropping your weights, how many of us practice it. We all have different systems belts & pockets. I have pockets. When your in a panic if it is not instinct your weights could be hard to find you may not even have time to think about it.

What I do every time I exit the water before I climb the ladder is pull my weights and hand them up. It does two things after you do it for a wile it starts to become natural you don't have to think or feel around for your weights you go rite to them and it's easier to climb the ladder with out them.

The point I wanted to make is pull your weights every dive hand them up before you climb the ladder.

I hope this can help.

My prayers for the family
Bruce

 

[dumpsterDiver]

.... The Crew, his brother and other divers, myself included, were following his bubbles and became increasingly concerned as we all knew he must be running low on air and the relatively strong current was carrying him further away from the boat. He eventually surfaced about 150 feet from the boat, and in a panic began flailing his arms. The Captain and others were yelling at him to drop his weight belt, inflate his BC, swim to the line. When we noticed he had removed his mask three divers donned their masks and fins and jumped off to help but he had already dissappeared under the water never to resurface. ]

What does this mean? We were following his bubbles and we thought he was in trouble. How do you follow bubbles? by watching? How do bubbles tell you someone is in trouble, except maybe if they stop or there is too many of them?

If they were watching his bubbles for an extended period of time,, then they must have known he was lost and separated, and low on air but they only watched his bubbles? This makes on sense to me.

It almost sounds like the crew knew that the diver was separted from his buddy, Stayed on the boat and watched as his bubbles indicated he was behind an anchored boat in a current. They watched the progress of his bubbles instead of sending out a snorkeler behind the boat with a trail line to asist him when (or if) he ascended. Then when he ascends, they watch in horror as he panics and they yell stuff at him.. and then.... finally.... send a diver(s) out to provide some useful assistance. However by now it is too late. Of course, this is what it "sounds like" to me....

A decent rescue swimmer with fins and a mask can swim 50 yards (the 150 ft distance) in less than one minute. It is hard for me to understand why they did not do more than watch bubbles IF they were concerned for the diver.


If I were generally concerned about a lost diver ascending late, alone behind an anchored boat in a current... Well I would have just swam out with snorkeling equipment and towed a safety line attached to the boat. I would have been on his "azz" before he hit the surface.

However, I would ONLY do this if i had reason to believe the diver was likely gonna have some type of serious problem with ascending behind the boat. If the wind was not blowing the boat at a heading very different from the current then the tail line should have been very close to the diver. In general, I would expect that a diver ascending 150 ft from the back of the boat should have easily been able to make it safely to the safety line and float without any help.


The comment about the people watching his bubbles and being very concerned, just doesn't seem to be consistent with the apparent inactivity from the divers on the vessel....?

 

[DandyDon]

Whoa here, DumpsterDiver

Originally Posted by Coqui Diver
.... The Crew, his brother and other divers, myself included, were following his bubbles and became increasingly concerned as we all knew he must be running low on air and the relatively strong current was carrying him further away from the boat. He eventually surfaced about 150 feet from the boat, and in a panic began flailing his arms. The Captain and others were yelling at him to drop his weight belt, inflate his BC, swim to the line. When we noticed he had removed his mask three divers donned their masks and fins and jumped off to help but he had already dissappeared under the water never to resurface. ]

Your quote of Coqui's post failed to show that he was giving a third party's report. I do not think he was on the boat, so cannot answer direct questions - altho I share your thoughts about why they didn't send a Rescue Diver with a line. Here is a more accurate quote of that post...

Following is the original post on this incident from the NYCDIVERS message board. No one should Monday morning quarterback specially without all the facts. As it is this must be tough on everyone involved. From the information that is available it seems like reasonable steps were taken to rescue the paniced diver without putting anyone else at risk. It is an unfortunate incident that we all should learn from and we should be greatful that no one else was hurt or killed. May the deceased diver RIP.

"We were diving on the USS Turner because our planned destination, the Warrior was silted out. vis on the Turner was about five, eight at best. He got seperated from his buddy and brother, who was already on the boat when I finished my dive. The Crew, his brother and other divers, myself included, were following his bubbles and became increasingly concerned as we all knew he must be running low on air and the relatively strong current was carrying him further away from the boat. He eventually surfaced about 150 feet from the boat, and in a panic began flailing his arms. The Captain and others were yelling at him to drop his weight belt, inflate his BC, swim to the line. When we noticed he had removed his mask three divers donned their masks and fins and jumped off to help but he had already dissappeared under the water never to resurface. A search was conducted by several divers on the boat and by NYC Police Scuba but the body was never found.

Needless to say it was a very unfortunate accident, and a very somber experience."

It would be informative to have first hand information, but this is not available to us here, I don't think...??

 

[El Tiburon]

Thank You Don. I don't need to add anything to that. You handled it superbly.
Coqui Diver

 

[LobstaMan]

I also disagree with deleting any posts under this thread. Well-thought out responses to these posts are the most effective way to counter them, not deleting them. Under certain circumstances I agree with moderator deletions, but not here. Thanks for keeping an eye on things, Kim.

LobstaMan

 

[TSherman]

The Captain of the boat has merely the role of making sure the diver is certified. It is prudent to see that he has some experience also, but not required. Not many Captains get to see these divers in action and no one comes NJ experienced from birth so everyone starts somewhere. Secondly the most experienced divers can have and issue, and panic. Just because one diver is in trouble gives no Captain the right to pull the line and assist him! EVER! If he has divers under he stays....period. NJ divers are supposed to be self sufficient and ascend on a line (mooring line of that upline you should carry). Currents can be bad, or really bad so you need to keep yourself on the wreck. I am assuming that he was in such distress that he did not have time, or did not have or reel....but, it happened we need to learn from it. NJ is not Florida, it gets nasty and buddy diving is tougher. Depending on where the victim/diver somes up from the boat the boat crew may not be much help either, thats why we have safety equipment.

Incidents like this are very sad, but most times no ones fault. Ever diver takes that risk and just that the Captain is devastated shows the mans true character. For someone outside the NJ/NY dive area to judge him is off the wall. Keep your 1000' viz/toe to tail guided diving ideas to yourself! The Captains responsibility is to keep the boat on the wreck until all divers are up, then go for the ones that did not come up the anchor line.

God I hate Monday morning quarter backs with low number warm clear water dives!

That is indeed why I said it COULD be argued - I`m sort of on the fence about this one - While not necessary I think getting some information about the divers experience level is prudent. However - as I mentioned - the capt may have checked this and/or the buddy may be been an experienced diver and/or the diver himself may not have been entirely honest about his experience.

I agree as divers we are adults and responsible for ourselves - but a little help now and again is no bad thing

Don - In these cases the skipper is the trip organiser - it is his boat and he is promoting the trip so he does have a duty to at least check the diver is certified.

 

[lamont]

If they were watching his bubbles for an extended period of time,, then they must have known he was lost and separated, and low on air but they only watched his bubbles? This makes on sense to me.

Most of the time when an incident like this happens the boat hasn't been watching bubbles and has no idea where the diver is, and only after 90 min+ of bottom time has gone by do they alert the coast guard that the diver never showed up.

And I've never been on a boat with a rescue swimmer or a DM onboard. What suddenly changes about a boat dive that requires this? Certified divers aren't required to have a DM or rescue swimmer on the beach when we do a shore dive, and we can wind up hundreds of yards offshore in ripping currents and get swept out to sea if we really mess up good -- I don't see how a boat dive is inherently more dangerous to require a higher degree of care from the captain. It might be a good idea on a boat dive full of brand new open water students, but I've never thought to myself "wow, this boat dive is so much more unsafe than a shore dive, we really need a rescue swimmer..."

 

[DandyDon]

Most of the time when an incident like this happens the boat hasn't been watching bubbles and has no idea where the diver is, and only after 90 min+ of bottom time has gone by do they alert the coast guard that the diver never showed up.

The report we have to work with is third hand, brought over from a local board by the OP. In post #19 I think, he gives an exacty quote of the original post that includes this excerpt: "The Crew, his brother and other divers, myself included, were following his bubbles and became increasingly concerned as we all knew he must be running low on air and the relatively strong current was carrying him further away from the boat."

So I know that it is not the norm, there are claims of this being in action in this case.

And I've never been on a boat with a rescue swimmer or a DM onboard. What suddenly changes about a boat dive that requires this? Certified divers aren't required to have a DM or rescue swimmer on the beach when we do a shore dive, and we can wind up hundreds of yards offshore in ripping currents and get swept out to sea if we really mess up good -- I don't see how a boat dive is inherently more dangerous to require a higher degree of care from the captain. It might be a good idea on a boat dive full of brand new open water students, but I've never thought to myself "wow, this boat dive is so much more unsafe than a shore dive, we really need a rescue swimmer..."

I've been on many that did not, and many that did - in California, Florida, North Carolina. I like it when one is available and ready. The two I saw on a 3 day liveaboard off of California were in their wet suits standing ready on the deck during ever dive.

We do not know the capabilities of this boat from what we have so far...