Diver Dies in Lake Huron on the Dunderberg

[TSandM]

Please note that a diver who has toxed, assuming he has not drowned in the process, will resume breathing when the seizure ends. What you do with an unresponsive, breathing diver whose seizure you WITNESSED is quite different from what you do with an unresponsive and not breathing diver, whose initiating event you didn't see and don't know. In one case, the possibility of survival is actually pretty high, if everything goes well. In the other, it is dubious.

People don't die of a seizure. They die of drowning BECAUSE of their seizure.

 

[ianr33]

This thread just cements my desire to take a rescue course next. Honestly, I wouldn't know what to do with an incapcitated diver. Nothing I've taken so far has teached that, please tell me Rescue does go through all that?

A rescue course will teach you how to bring a diver to the surface but it will do this from a recreational standpoint. The discussions here about deco obligations and O2 seizures is something that only (hopefully!) applies to "technical" dives. If you are within NDL and have an unresponsive diver then you bring them to the surface. On a "technical" dive it gets a lot more complex as that may not be possible/sensible.

Rescue is a great course,should be done by every committed diver.

 

[DandyDon]

This thread just cements my desire to take a rescue course next. Honestly, I wouldn't know what to do with an incapcitated diver. Nothing I've taken so far has teached that, please tell me Rescue does go through all that?

It's a great course. May not make you super diver, and there are too many possibilities to plan for all, but it will help sure.

 

[lobstah]

Can you think of a good reason to do all your deco stops with a dead diver, you like looking in their non responsive eyes?

We are talking about unresponsive guy who was very alive a minute? two? ago? We will know diver is dead once we break the surface and have ability to analyze ALL vital signs. Speedy trip up with open larynx still can result in lung barotrauma. In particular for people with history of smoking. I perceive that a greater risk than vague benefit of "oh someone on top will see him and take care of him, he is dead anyway". I definitely prefer to team up with people who will bring me up slowly if i happen to pass out.

 

[cerich]

We are talking about unresponsive guy who was very alive a minute? two? ago? We will know diver is dead once we break the surface and have ability to analyze ALL vital signs. Speedy trip up with open larynx still can result in lung barotrauma. In particular for people with history of smoking. I perceive that a greater risk than vague benefit of "oh someone on top will see him and take care of him, he is dead anyway". I definitely prefer to team up with people who will bring me up slowly if i happen to pass out.

the victim doesn't have the luxury of time, he is underwater, not breathing and heart not beating and his brain will soon be devoid of any activity. I personally don't need to be on the surface to KNOW that after just a few short minutes that diver is DEAD, cold and dead and FAR beyond saving. You can't bring him/her up fast enough to help them without injury to yourself. You are worrying about lung barotrauma on a corpse.

There is no vague "somebody on top" there is surface support required for team technical diving, and if you aren't using surface support you are quite simply accepting risk beyond what should be acceptable.

Your comment regarding smoking is a smoke and mirrors argument and really adds nothing of benefit to the discussion.

Your ending preference is that your team bring you up slowly if you "happen to pass out" is honestly absurd to me.

 

[lobstah]

Your ending preference is that your team bring you up slowly if you "happen to pass out" is honestly absurd to me.

Just like yours "he is dead, shoot him to the surface so someone can help him" is absurd to me. I'm afraid it will stay this way.

 

[cerich]

Just like yours "he is dead, shoot him to the surface so someone can help him" is absurd to me. I'm afraid it will stay this way.

what happened to thinking divers and team including surface support? Because you seem to be advocating form over thought and dismissing the idea of a team including surface support.

I have never advocated not bringing a breathing diver up slowly, but in tech diving the min they stop breathing you are left with no other VIABLE option unless you have no/very min deco.

 

[limeyx]

what happened to thinking divers and team including surface support? Because you seem to be advocating form over thought and dismissing the idea of a team including surface support.

I have never advocated not bringing a breathing diver up slowly, but in tech diving the min they stop breathing you are left with no other VIABLE option.

You seem so sure of your "shoot the guy to the surface" proposal -- is that based on actual evidence/experience, or medical theory ? I understand you have some kind of medical background, but what are your conclusions based on ? None of my tech courses really covered shooting an unresponsive buddy to the surface.

What would you do if you were recreational diving from say 130 feet where even if you go 30fpm to the surface, you still have 5 or so mins to the surface --- the same as "tech" diving or not ? I am honestly curious.


Of course you will have some kind of surface support during a tech dive, but often this is limited to a boat captain who has limited options to chase/retrieve a floating victim.

 

[cerich]

You seem so sure of your "shoot the guy to the surface" proposal -- is that based on actual evidence/experience, or medical theory ? I understand you have some kind of medical background, but what are your conclusions based on ? None of my tech courses really covered shooting an unresponsive buddy to the surface.

What would you do if you were recreational diving from say 130 feet where even if you go 30fpm to the surface, you still have 5 or so mins to the surface --- the same as "tech" diving or not ? I am honestly curious.


Of course you will have some kind of surface support during a tech dive, but often this is limited to a boat captain who has limited options to chase/retrieve a floating victim.

I am sure of it because it is the ONLY action that will give even the most remote chance of survival for the victim and not add more casualties to the mix. It is NOT a great option but is the only LOGICAL option and obviously is not what people want to hear.

Recreational diving obviously the diver will be brought to the surface by me, and while you seem to base your time frame on 30 fpm assent, please remember that for years we all taught and dove 60 fpm and many exceeded that on a reg basis without massive cases of DCS everywhere you looked! So a recreational dive on air or Nitrox (not a mix with helium, even no deco) expect me to bring my buddy to the surface at somewhere around 90 fpm and when I get them to the surface for me to start in water AR while bringing them to boat/shore where I can start CPR. Time to surface of less than 2 mins from depth.

Your example illustrates some of the SIGNIFICANT differences between recreational and technical diving, both the actual issues involved and also the significant different thought process you need to approach technical diving with. It is NOT rec diving, the surface is NOT an option, if things go bad you will most likely die, in recreational if things go bad you will most likely live.

IMHO the biggest mistake I see among tech divers and tech instructors is assuming that good technique/planning/equipment for recreational diving is still "good enough" for tech. Normally it isn't.

I am 100% certain that the intentions of those that advocate bring a tech diver to the surface are saying so with the best of intentions, however there is a old saw that applies here (the road to hell is paved with good intentions)

 

[cerich]

Of course you will have some kind of surface support during a tech dive, but often this is limited to a boat captain who has limited options to chase/retrieve a floating victim.

if the boat capt is that limited you shouldn't be diving with that boat captain. You need to brief the boat captain in on your plan and team procedures. That is the ONLY way he can do his job and the only way to have him as a vital member of your team.