Diver Dies in Lake Huron on the Dunderberg

[limeyx]

I am sure of it because it is the ONLY action that will give even the most remote chance of survival for the victim and not add more casualties to the mix. It is NOT a great option but is the only LOGICAL option and obviously is not what people want to hear.

Recreational diving obviously the diver will be brought to the surface by me, and while you seem to base your time frame on 30 fpm assent, please remember that for years we all taught and dove 60 fpm and many exceeded that on a reg basis without massive cases of DCS everywhere you looked! So a recreational dive on air or Nitrox (not a mix with helium, even no deco) expect me to bring my buddy to the surface at somewhere around 90 fpm and when I get them to the surface for me to start in water AR while bringing them to boat/shore where I can start CPR. Time to surface of less than 2 mins from depth.

Your example illustrates some of the SIGNIFICANT differences between recreational and technical diving, both the actual issues involved and also the significant different thought process you need to approach technical diving with. It is NOT rec diving, the surface is NOT an option, if things go bad you will most likely die, in recreational if things go bad you will most likely live.

IMHO the biggest mistake I see among tech divers and tech instructors is assuming that good technique/planning/equipment for recreational diving is still "good enough" for tech. Normally it isn't.

I am 100% certain that the intentions of those that advocate bring a tech diver to the surface are saying so with the best of intentions, however there is a old saw that applies here (the road to hell is paved with good intentions)

You seem to be saying "I'm right because I am right" which honestly isn't that compelling an argument.

I am well aware of the differences between tech and rec diving, and one huge issue I see is that "tech" divers are terrified of skipping even a small amount of decompression.

I am also very aware that the chances of survival even in a recreational dive if you stop breathing are not that great.

I would be very impressed if someone could bring up a diver at not less than 60fpm an not more than 90fpm while keeping the divers airway clear without it being essentially a buoyant ascent.

Also, where DO you draw the line ? You gave a response to a "rec" dive to 130
Now, take that 10 feet deeper to 140, where your buddy has an issue at 5 mins into the dive.

I think most would consider this a dive that has at least a little "mandatory" decompression even though its not much more than a "recreational" dive -- are you still going to ascend the buddy at 90fpm ? or is this case now somehow different because it's a tech dive, or you are breathing helium and not air/nitrox ?

I am genuinely interested, and not trying to pick a fight "just 'cause"

 

[Randy43068]

Nick, I think the lines have been pretty well defined throughout the thread as to what may or may not happen.

 

[limeyx]

if the boat capt is that limited you shouldn't be diving with that boat captain. You need to brief the boat captain in on your plan and team procedures. That is the ONLY way he can do his job and the only way to have him as a vital member of your team.

Yes of course, but by definition, a captain is more limited than a safety diver for instance, and should the captain make a rescue of a diver, now he may have to leave multiple divers decompressing on a buoy to rescue the victim, and he cannot very well be in 2 places at once.

PLUS in this scenario, the boat may have to leave the site for medical services, and this DOES mean divers are going to have to adjust their schedules in many cases.

 

[limeyx]

Nick, I think the lines have been pretty well defined throughout the thread as to what may or may not happen.

I dont think that is the case honestly.

Nowhere in my technical or cave training has shooting someone to the surface been discussed as a primary rescue technique

 

[cerich]

You seem to be saying "I'm right because I am right" which honestly isn't that compelling an argument.

I am well aware of the differences between tech and rec diving, and one huge issue I see is that "tech" divers are terrified of skipping even a small amount of decompression.

I am also very aware that the chances of survival even in a recreational dive if you stop breathing are not that great.

I would be very impressed if someone could bring up a diver at not less than 60fpm an not more than 90fpm while keeping the divers airway clear without it being essentially a buoyant ascent.

Also, where DO you draw the line ? You gave a response to a "rec" dive to 130
Now, take that 10 feet deeper to 140, where your buddy has an issue at 5 mins into the dive.

I think most would consider this a dive that has at least a little "mandatory" decompression even though its not much more than a "recreational" dive -- are you still going to ascend the buddy at 90fpm ? or is this case now somehow different because it's a tech dive, or you are breathing helium and not air/nitrox ?

I am genuinely interested, and not trying to pick a fight "just 'cause"

right is right, not because I'm saying it but because...well figure it out

I draw the line at thinking, by which i mean just that. What are the circumstances? What is appropriate for that circumstance?

You caught my comment on helium and assent rate,as you know you are MUCH more likely to get bent on a fast assent if you have been breathing a gas with helium in it. That factors obviously. Can i get the victim to the surface in less than 2 mins without harm to myself, then get going, NO??? It will take 5 mins to get to the roof safely, then get the victim there first. Better hurt on the surface than dead underwater. Again I am talking about a not conscious not breathing diver. An already DEAD diver.

 

[cerich]

Yes of course, but by definition, a captain is more limited than a safety diver for instance, and should the captain make a rescue of a diver, now he may have to leave multiple divers decompressing on a buoy to rescue the victim, and he cannot very well be in 2 places at once.

PLUS in this scenario, the boat may have to leave the site for medical services, and this DOES mean divers are going to have to adjust their schedules in many cases.

again, all of this stuff is already part of the plan BEFORE you get in the water, all of the things you mention are predefined as to what each member of the team (including the boat capt) can expect.

By the way, I plan to have as completely clean a schedule as reasonable when I exit the water, that means I can shave on the fly "if" needed. I have never understood the logic of guys that are fanatical about shaving as much deco as they can possibly get away with on every dive...I actually dive to be in the water!

 

[cerich]

I would be very impressed if someone could bring up a diver at not less than 60fpm an not more than 90fpm while keeping the divers airway clear without it being essentially a buoyant ascent.

that is really not that terribly difficult, it is a pretty standard taught skill in diving (or at least used to be commonly taught) but...., again after all this you still believe there is some magic to "keeping the airway clear" on a assent for a unconscious not breathing diver? Why? Honestly would would have to work to prevent air from escaping on that unconscious, not breathing diver. That I haven't practiced! lol

 

[cerich]

I dont think that is the case honestly.

Nowhere in my technical or cave training has shooting someone to the surface been discussed as a primary rescue technique

DUDE!!!!!!!!!!????????????

To whit, my comments regarding thinking divers.....

Why on earth would somebody suggest shooting a diver as a rescue technique in a cave course???????

Did you notice the rock over your head during said training?????

In a cave unless you are at the exit,you leave them there and exit. Recovery will occur later when thought out so it can be done safely.

 

[limeyx]

DUDE!!!!!!!!!!????????????

To whit, my comments regarding thinking divers.....

Why on earth would somebody suggest shooting a diver as a rescue technique in a cave course???????

Did you notice the rock over your head during said training?????

In a cave unless you are at the exit,you leave them there and exit. Recovery will occur later when thought out so it can be done safely.

Evidently all hope of a reasonable discussion is over.

 

[cerich]

Evidently all hope of a reasonable discussion is over.

lol, you have to admit I wasn't the one that brought cave training into this....