Diver Death in Cayman

[Eddie Kish]

His cert that allows him to lead a dive safely, which he did not do. He should not be able to ever lead a dive again.:depressed:

The fact that THIS dive was not planned by the shop but left up to this unsafe DM indicates what to you? You think every boat dive is that planned in advance? Where do you dive? Have you ever been on a boat where the Capt and DM ask divers where THEY would like to dive that day?

Diving in Cayman isnt really planned out the way you are talking about. What is decided in the Dive Shop or on the phone is if you will be diving the West Bay or the North Wall. You then meet the boat and head out. The capt asks where you want to go and will try to accommodate the requests. All of the dive sites have permanent mooring balls. If the site you want is taken, you go somewhere else or wait. This is why most dives aren't planned in advance unless you are specifically asking for a certain dive site. Most of the dive sites in the West Bay have access to the wall, some require more swimming than others to get there.
Taking divers with little experience to 100ft+ is typical with most operators. Most divers come to Cayman to dive the walls and the dive boats will accommodate that.
It is generally a very stress free dive will unlimited viz and the ability to see the boat and the sun from 100ft+

This is a very unfortunate and sad situation, but aside from the diver fatality, it is a set of circumstances that happens every day for many many divers.

What was the results of the autopsy? I still would not be surprised if something happened to cause the separation with the group.

Also, It seems to me that the DM/DG didnt continue the dive as originally stated. The separation happened after the 10 min mark, most wall dives in Cayman are planned for about 22 min. They were more than likely headed back to the boat when the diver was noticed missing. The DM would have had to get the rest of the group back to the line and to their safety stop before he could do anything else. His first thought was the missing diver was probably at the line, which I think would be where most of us would have looked first.
None of this is to say that mistakes weren't made, but I just wanted to add some perspective to the type of diving that is done in the Cayman Islands.
I should also add the I have dove with Divers Down, once. I would not recommended them in the past, and did not enjoy my day on the boat. I did not think the DM/Capt provided the level of service that I was used to in Cayman, and he smoked on the boat which drives me all kinds of crazy.

 

[GaryLee]

GaryLee,

How can anyone at DD give any facts? The only member from DD was the DM/Matthew on the boat. And unless that is you. He is not talking. So NO ONE from that shop can clear up any erroneous facts. THEY WEREN'T THERE!

Facts,

who did you see in the shop? what did they say?
what did they tell you about the dive you were going to do?
Did they ask you for experience, to do a try out dive?

D.D:
you and I both know that they cannot talk about this whilst the investigation is still underway.

However the Autopsy should be available and as I have posted erlier. I've applied for a copy under UK Law. so unless you want to publish it first. I will should I be granted it.

 

[openmindOW]

However the Autopsy should be available and as I have posted erlier. I've applied for a copy under UK Law. so unless you want to publish it first. I will should I be granted it.

This is a dumb question, I know, but I'd like to know the answer. Why UK law? What about Cayman law?

 

[tiggrr]

Here's another question.....what are you looking for in the autopsy???

I'm assuming the cause of death is drowning. Are you looking for if he was bent or heart attack?
And even if one of them turns out to be the cause, it won't tell us exactly how this accident happened. As in what was going thru the divers mind.

What am I missing??

 

[GaryLee]

This is a dumb question, I know, but I'd like to know the answer. Why UK law? What about Cayman law?

There are no such things as dumb questions

Cayman Law is under UK Law in this instance.

 

[Thalassamania]

If you choose to come not come clean on your "sources" then we have no choice but to assume what we will. You don't like it? Tough.

I don't know what your experience shows you (there's that stupid, "appeal to authority" that I so often see when Dive Instructors who are used to not being questioned find themselves in a corner), but if we're going to play that game:

What experience do you bring to the table?

How many diving fatalities have you investigated?

How many times have you been qualified as an expert in a court of law?

What honors and awards have you garnered beyond being on an ITC in Santa Domingo?

How many articles on diving safety have you published?

What do you expect to learn from an autopsy performed by a person who thinks that nitrogen narcosis can be detected ex post mortum?

Might I suggest that if there is some getting over to be done you look to your Curriculum Vitae? I suspect that mine's more than a little longer. It's a stupid, stupid game to play. I can choose to be stupid too, but I'd much rather gently recommend that you stop trying to play the "authority" card, it doesn't cut it here.

 

[GaryLee]

Here's another question.....what are you looking for in the autopsy???

I'm assuming the cause of death is drowning. Are you looking for if he was bent or heart attack?
And even if one of them turns out to be the cause, it won't tell us exactly how this accident happened. As in what was going thru the divers mind.

What am I missing??

It's another piece in the puzzle so that those of us that can and do influence new divers and also those that are interested in safetly can see if there are any lessons we can learn.

For instance, although his training told him time and time again he should not dive to the depths he did: he still did, why? was it that he was an exception who didn't care or the norm where the repetitivness still didn't sink in.

 

[fosterboxermom]

Facts,

who did you see in the shop? what did they say?
what did they tell you about the dive you were going to do?
Did they ask you for experience, to do a try out dive?

D.D:
you and I both know that they cannot talk about this whilst the investigation is still underway.

However the Autopsy should be available and as I have posted erlier. I've applied for a copy under UK Law. so unless you want to publish it first. I will should I be granted it.

The only person in the shop was Shaggy ( a guy with long dreads) He didn't say anything. He seemed to be a burnt out old hippy. The only thing he told us is where the boat was along the beach and we had to drive to it. He did not ask us about experience. We filled out release forms that asked us how many dives we had done and it was the typical release form you get at any PADI shop. Cert Number, name, address, number of previous dives, etc. No try out dive was offered. Is that something dive shops do? Never heard of it!

As far as the autopsy goes. Pam has told me parts of it and I have not pushed her on it. I know bits and pieces. Not enough to publish a full report same as the dive computer. And if you publish something so personal to a family on the internet, I hope someday it comes back to you. I believe in Karma and publishing someones autopsy report that could go anywhere from here you should be a shame of yourself. That is not going to show anything except that he is dead. We all know how he died. He went to deep the details are not important. We need to know how he got to that depth not how he died from that depth. If anything keep it private. Out of respect for Pam and Brendan not for me. Have some human compassion for Christ sake. And if others want it published then I will permanently stay off this board.

 

[GaryLee]

If you choose to come not come clean on your "sources" then we have no choice but to assume what we will. You don't like it? Tough.

I don't know what your experience shows you (there's that stupid, "appeal to authority" that I so often see when Dive Instructors who are used to not being questioned find themselves in a corner), but if we're going to play that game:

What experience do you bring to the table?

How many diving fatalities have you investigated?

How many times have you been qualified as an expert in a court of law?

What honors and awards have you garnered beyond being on an ITC in Santa Domingo?

What do you expect to learn from an autopsy performed by a person who thinks that nitrogen narcosis can be detected ex post mortum?

Might I suggest that if there is some getting over to be done you look to your Curriculum Vitae? I suspect that mine's more than a little longer. It's a stupid, stupid game to play. I can choose to be stupid too, but I'd much rather gently recommend that you stop trying to play the "authority" card, it doesn't cut it here.

Experience: I've taught over 1000 students of differnt levels (was going to say varying but not sure if that was the spelling)
I've never investigated a fatality. thankfully
I've been called once into the crown court and don't want to do it again.

what the hell is an ITC?

An Autopsy: it was just another piece in the puzzle.

I'm sorry if you thought I was playing the Authority card
All of my mentors have more authority than I do.


anything I missed answering?

 

[tiggrr]

It's another piece in the puzzle so that those of us that can and do influence new divers and also those that are interested in safetly can see if there are any lessons we can learn.

For instance, although his training told him time and time again he should not dive to the depths he did: he still did, why? was it that he was an exception who didn't care or the norm where the repetitivness still didn't sink in.

Ok, not sure what can be learned from the autopsy still. Like would it matter either way if it was heart attack or what other alternatives? I mean, he went to ....what was it again? 300+?? I wouldn't be surprised if a multitude of things happened to his body. I'm asking what different conclusions to the accident can come from different results of the autopsy?

(on a side note...who is Thalassamania arguing with? I have to read back......)

edit....awww geez He's arguing with you!!!

edit 2.....awww geez everyone's arguing with you