Diver Death in Cayman

[Tricia]

If it's any comfort to the OP, the point of this forum is to learn from accidents and I have certainly learned from this one. I have just over 100 dives and until not long ago, I thought "DiveMaster" was a higher rank than "Instructor" (I assumed that Divemaster was the next level up in PADI from the Instructor). And as Ayisha put it so well, I assumed that all these professionals were "Dive Gods" with tons of experience and that I could depend on them to at least help me dive carefully and stay safe.

But thanks to this forum, I (and others) have now learned the truth and next time I'm diving, I'll be more aware and ask questions about the person leading the dive.

I'm so sorry for the OP's loss, but at least some of us have learned from this man's death.

Trish

 

[pilot fish]

I was totally thrilled to read this enlightening, honest post. THIS is what this thread is all about, to help other divers to see the realities of diving and to understand what a DG, new age term, and DM actually do, and not do. We all had these exaggerated feelings of safety knowing a person with the title ,Dive Master, was on the boat, when we first started diving. Remember all this when it comes time to tip at the end of the dive. If you want to tip for people helping you on with your gear, some stale, dumb jokes and the calypso dance, fine. Just don't tip because you THOUGHT they kept you safe, or had ANY responsibility for your safety.

If it's any comfort to the OP, the point of this forum is to learn from accidents and I have certainly learned from this one. I have just over 100 dives and until not long ago, I thought "DiveMaster" was a higher rank than "Instructor" (I assumed that Divemaster was the next level up in PADI from the Instructor). And as Ayisha put it so well, I assumed that all these professionals were "Dive Gods" with tons of experience and that I could depend on them to at least help me dive carefully and stay safe.

But thanks to this forum, I (and others) have now learned the truth and next time I'm diving, I'll be more aware and ask questions about the person leading the dive.

I'm so sorry for the OP's loss, but at least some of us have learned from this man's death.

Trish

 

[pilot fish]

I am not saying for a second that this DM didn't dropped the ball - the site was wrong, the breifing stunk.

I think it was worse than, stunk. It was DANGEROUS AND UNPROFESSIONAL.

My focus is not ONLY on his original training but the fact of the matter is that if this diver has exercised personal responsibility then this likely wouldn't have happened. Unless he was unaware of the dangers in the first place.

Assuming the original training was up to standards then this diver would have been made aware of his training of the risk of narcosis, of the increasing rate of using his air, of the suggested depth limits and why. So if his training was up to standards then why didn't he listen to that training - is there not enough emphasis being put on personal responsibility during the course? Did he just ignore it (I will admit that I have caught wind of former students of mine exceeding depth limits and doing other things that I trained them against - I assure you I was not happy about it). So to answer your question - I don't know and neither can you know/think/believe if the diver would have still been alive ... if he ignored his training on this dive then what would have kept him from ignoring his training on a 60-80 dive? - maybe holding his breath while ascending, maybe wondering off and finding a deeper area, maybe ignoring his pressure gauge.

You say your focus is not only on the diver's training, or lack of, but that is all you talk about, in detail too. :laughing: How about you describe ALL the things this sorry excuse for a dive leader did, and DID NOT DO, that helped cause this divers death? What do YOU think this "dive guide" could have, SHOULD HAVE, done that would have had a safe conclusion to this fatefull dive? Is this another question you'll run from because you don't like the obvious answer?

PF clearly you want handholding by dive professionals and since your OW and other certs are indicating you don't need that - please let me know if this is what you are asking for and I'll send you a PM with my address. Then send me your c-cards and I will find an industrial sized wood chipper to put them through (I'll even video tape it for you). Further more - so you can still enjoy diving ... I'll invite you up to Canada (on my dime) to complete a Scuba Diver cert - this cert will allow all dive professionals to know that you require/want a much higher level of observation during dives and you will receive it.

scubamoose, you give yourself away with lame charges like that. That's the catch phrase used by those that want to beat thier chest online with how great they are and how needy everyone else is. If I want, or need, my hand held, it will not be while I'm diving and not by you. And no, I do not have a wallet filled with dive certs. I am only certified AOW, nitrox and have 250 dives. Not great but I have some dive experience.

 

[LavaSurfer]

Let's see, if the Dive Master is really just a Dive Guide, has zero responsibilty for new divers, is not responsible for at least advising safe profiles for that dive, does not keep the group together, so he's not even "guiding" the dive, does not warn a brand new diver against diving to 100 ft, as recommended against by most, if not all, dive agencies, continues a dive while a brand new diver is missing, takes new divers to an mproper dive site and does not hold proper pre dive briefing, is that DM/DG doing his job? Is he doing any job, other than the calypso shuck and jive for tips?

I have tried to keep out of this and keep my mouth shut but seriously PF, You are obviously on some sort of a crusade here.

s not responsible for at least advising safe profiles for that dive

Who is responsible for safe diving profiles? Get real. It is the diver. Every diver new and old learns safe diving profiles and blaming anyone for anothers stupidity and inability to learn is flat out wrong.

does not warn a brand new diver against diving to 100 ft, as recommended against by most, if not all, dive agencies

Do you see the circular logic here or are you so intent on blaming everyone around you and everyone but the guy who went deep. I highlighted the key points so that you may see the answer you gave to yourself. In case you did not get it, the Diver was warned, probably dozens of times and even had to pass a test stating he knew and was warned.

does not hold proper pre dive briefing

You just have no way of knowing this. It is absurd that you keep harping on this fact. stated in a post almost to the top that I have dove with these guys and in particular the DM/OWS in question and although he is very entertaining, he is also extremely thorough in every predive briefing I have seen him do. Almost to the point of annoying and it is my "SPECULATION" these people on the boat tunes him out. After all, the one diver failed to oboy the bottom limits, who is to say he would have listened to the predive anyway?

takes new divers to an mproper dive site

Define an improper site. These dives ore completely proper, I take my students on them all the time. They are great safe dive sites. There are few improper sites but more improper divers. The key again is you are blaming the DM, blaming the operator and now blaming the dive site itself. Soon I suspect you will blame the fish.

 

[Dadvocate]

If you want to tip for people helping you on with your gear, some stale, dumb jokes and the calypso dance, fine. Just don't tip because you THOUGHT they kept you safe, or had ANY responsibility for your safety.

I don’t wish to rattle the cage here because I am primarily in agreement with the sage advice being given by lots of people. Every diver should be their own guardian angel and never become complacent by assuming that a DM, a guide, or whoever is going to ‘keep you safe’. I can put my own gear on thank you, and I will take care of my own equipment for that matter.

At the same time, tips don’t have to be tied to dancing, stale jokes, and the rest. They can be tied to safety just as easily if DMs and boat crews exhibit the appropriate behavior one expects.

If you have a DM who does excellent dive plans that turn out to be spot on dive after dive, if the DM makes wise decisions in the face of current or other unexpected contingencies and shows that he or she knows the area and the conditions so that you don’t end up getting unduly tired or what have you, if the DM handles other guests who act recklessly by speaking up and saying something instead of kowtowing for the tip later on, if you have checked the air and it is safe each time, then by all means give that DM and the supporting crew that tip when all is said and done and make sure there is no ambiguity about why they are getting it.

I tell the DM and the crew as well that the tip was tied to excellent dive plans, crews that were alert and helpful, or that those mentioned plans were followed when we hit the water. I tip and I fill out the comment card, and I avoid unnecessary platitudes about how gregarious the DM was, how fantastic the food was, how comfy the rooms were, etc except perhaps as a footnote after pointing out what is really important to me.

The tips themselves aren’t the problem, I’d say. A lot of DM’s and crews need them to make a fair living. Just make sure that the tips you give are tied to specific behavior that leads to safety and you can be sure the behavior will be repeated for others who are hopefully likeminded. And if you don’t like the service for safety reasons, withhold the tip altogether and tell them flat out why. That should be as much a consequence in my opinion. It isn’t like at a restaurant in the US where even the crummiest waiter still pulls 10% if the service sucks. It is an all or nothing deal for me.

Cheers!

 

[pilot fish]

OK, lavasurfer, help me understand a few things. Do you think this "dive guide" acted professionally? What would YOU have said if a BRAND NEW DIVER, who had just been certified, came to you on a dive boat and wanted to dive to a 100 ft on that very first dive? Would you have said ANYTHING to him? uh, this "dive guide did not, and agreed to take him to 100 ft. Would YOU have taken him to 100 ft????

My crusade? read tricia excellent post, that might help you.

 

[pilot fish]

lavasurfer, read this post also because it will help you to understand what should have been done, AND WAS NOT DONE, on that tragic dive.

If you have a DM who does excellent dive plans that turn out to be spot on dive after dive, if the DM makes wise decisions in the face of current or other unexpected contingencies and shows that he or she knows the area and the conditions so that you don’t end up getting unduly tired or what have you, if the DM handles other guests who act recklessly by speaking up and saying something instead of kowtowing for the tip later on, if you have checked the air and it is safe each time, then by all means give that DM and the supporting crew that tip when all is said and done and make sure there is no ambiguity about why they are getting it.

 

[Web Monkey]

Define an improper site. These dives ore completely proper, I take my students on them all the time. They are great safe dive sites. There are few improper sites but more improper divers.

A proper dive site would be one with a hard bottom somewhere in the range the divers were certified for.

As an instructor, you should know that the world is full of brand new divers with poor buoyancy control, and by definition, lack of judgement. While not all problems are preventable, some are, and this was one of them.

The DM and dive op could have prevented this entire tragedy by doing nothing more than anchoring over a shallow hard bottom and staying on the boat.

Terry

 

[CDNScubaMoose]

I think it was worse than, stunk. It was DANGEROUS AND UNPROFESSIONAL.



You say your focus is not only on the diver's training, or lack of, but that is all you talk about, in detail too. :laughing: How about you describe ALL the things this sorry excuse for a dive leader did, and DID NOT DO, that helped cause this divers death? What do YOU think this "dive guide" could have, SHOULD HAVE, done that would have had a safe conclusion to this fatefull dive? Is this another question you'll run from because you don't like the obvious answer?

Well to satisfy your demands that the DM had the responsibility to protect this individual from himself - I suppose he could have tied a line to this new diver ... so when he wandered off he could have reeled him back in. Maybe he could have made him rewrite the OW exam - specifically the questions about narcosis and dive planning. Maybe he could have stayed on the boat and let the diver do whatever he wanted to which is the standard protocol at a lot of dive sites. I guess you are right - there are lots of things this DM could have done to protect this diver from himself but to answer if they should have been ... it all depends on what this diver felt he was paying for. Clearly lack of communication or understanding.

scubamoose, you give yourself away with lame charges like that. That's the catch phrase used by those that want to beat thier chest online with how great they are and how needy everyone else is. If I want, or need, my hand held, it will not be while I'm diving and not by you. And no, I do not have a wallet filled with dive certs. I am only certified AOW, nitrox and have 250 dives. Not great but I have some dive experience.

Is that not what you are advocating - hand holding? The diver wasn't responsible to stay beside the DM - the DM had to follow this diver. The diver wasn't responsible for saying no - the DM had to determine that? Sounds like hand holding to me - but if you care to enlighten me as to how your definition of hand holding would differ then by all means.

Also - you have no idea about my diving history or the fact that I truly struggled with many aspects of diving and had to work hard to become comfortable in the water. I wasn't a natural and maybe this is what made it clear to me that I had to become better - I didn't have that false sense of security because I new I sucked. It is also why I know I will never do a trust me dive and why I stress to students not to ever do trust me dives and to dive within their limitations.

 

[pilot fish]

scuba moose, all of us sucked when we first strarted diving. That is a given. THAT IS THE POINT!This "dive guide" should have known that and been more alert.

Suffice it to say, we just don't agree here and your constant avoidance of my questions indicates to me that you are not open to a fair discussin. As they say, we're done. Safe diving, scuba moose.