Diver Death in Cayman

[Cave Diver]

I've been on those dives with this dive op (and many other very similar dive ops) and the plan consists of "follow me".

Maybe I'm the exception, but I was taught in my OW class not to do "trust me" dives, dive within conditions similar to your training and build experience. I was also taught that part of the planning process is doing site survey, asking other divers about the location, current, depth, conditions, etc. before putting your gear on and getting in the water. OW cert is a learners permit. You get out of it what you put into it.

I think the dive op was wrong to take inexperienced divers to a site that was 140'+ deep. But unless he put a gun to their head and forced them to jump in the water, they had the option of staying on the boat and asking the manager for a refund due to inappropriate site selection. There is more than one way to assign blame here.

The group becomes very spread out and at least on a wall dive, it's common to see new divers with poor awareness or buoyancy control going much deeper than they expected to.

Regardless of the plan, no reasonable dive leader would expect a diver with 2 dives to be able to handle much more of a plan than "don't forget to breathe". Many new divers are so stunned by what they're seeing that they don't even watch their tank pressure and certainly don't watch their depth.

No reasonable dive leader would take a diver with 2 dives to a site that has wall access in excess of 300' either, but that doesnt seem to hold true in this case.

 

[Cave Diver]

I'm not saying it's right or that the victim doesn't have any responsibility, but that knowing how new divers behave, the DM (or shop) chose the site poorly.

I agree that it was a poor choice of sites for new divers. I also think there was an equally poor choice for the divers to get in the water at a site that was beyond their comfort level.

 

[LavaSurfer]

A proper dive site would be one with a hard bottom somewhere in the range the divers were certified for.

As an instructor, you should know that the world is full of brand new divers with poor buoyancy control, and by definition, lack of judgement. While not all problems are preventable, some are, and this was one of them.

The DM and dive op could have prevented this entire tragedy by doing nothing more than anchoring over a shallow hard bottom and staying on the boat.

Terry

In hindsight and in a perfect world you are probably right. In reality divers go anywhere they please especially if not guided but even guided I have "been abandoned" by certified divers. If the boat had anchored above a hard bottom what would have stopped the diver from progressing to the wall which is almost always accessible to boat dives in the Caymans?

My point isn't to defend the Operation nor the DM. I wasn't there and neither was Pilot Fish. Actually none of us were except fosterboxermom and we have heard her dise of the story. What bothers me most is the blaming of everything from the boat, to the site, to the DM. If you digest this entire thread start to finish it is very evident that the blameing is a precidence. I got what pilot Fish was saying after his tenth post. I needn't hear it 50 more times unless he had something new to say.

That is all.

 

[Cave Diver]

In hindsight and in a perfect world you are probably right. In reality divers go anywhere they please especially if not guided but even guided I have "been abandoned" by certified divers. If the boat had anchored above a hard bottom what would have stopped the diver from progressing to the wall which is almost always accessible to boat dives in the Caymans?

Not likely, if that's what they were determined to do. A vast majority of the dives that we do in Cayman, especially on that part of the island, are shore dives where we swim out to the wall, drop over and follow it for a while before coming back to the top and navigating back to our entry point. We rarely hire a boat due to the fact that the wall is so accessible here.

 

[Web Monkey]

Maybe I'm the exception, but I was taught in my OW class not to do "trust me" dives. I was also taught that part of the planning process is doing site survey, asking other divers about the location, current, depth, conditions, etc. before putting your gear on and getting in the water.

It's great stuff, but not on the PADI OW exam and AFAIK, is not a certification requirement for OW.

I teach my students that the proper hand sign for when the DM is doing something dumb or running past the divers ascent pressure, involves extending the middle finger on the right hand, pointing it at the DM, then doing a normal ascent with their buddy. Unfortunately, this isn't in the OW book either.

Terry

 

[fosterboxermom]

I have tried to keep out of this and keep my mouth shut but seriously PF, You are obviously on some sort of a crusade here.
Who is responsible for safe diving profiles? Get real. It is the diver. Every diver new and old learns safe diving profiles and blaming anyone for anothers stupidity and inability to learn is flat out wrong.

Do you see the circular logic here or are you so intent on blaming everyone around you and everyone but the guy who went deep. I highlighted the key points so that you may see the answer you gave to yourself. In case you did not get it, the Diver was warned, probably dozens of times and even had to pass a test stating he knew and was warned.

You just have no way of knowing this. It is absurd that you keep harping on this fact. stated in a post almost to the top that I have dove with these guys and in particular the DM/OWS in question and although he is very entertaining, he is also extremely thorough in every predive briefing I have seen him do. Almost to the point of annoying and it is my "SPECULATION" these people on the boat tunes him out. After all, the one diver failed to oboy the bottom limits, who is to say he would have listened to the predive anyway?

Define an improper site. These dives ore completely proper, I take my students on them all the time. They are great safe dive sites. There are few improper sites but more improper divers. The key again is you are blaming the DM, blaming the operator and now blaming the dive site itself. Soon I suspect you will blame the fish.

The first rule of rescue is don't become a victim yourself.

An instructor has rescue training, but that doesnt mean he has the requisite training to go to 200'+ OR effect a rescue from that type of depth.

Two partially used tanks is hardly sufficient gas planning to try and go to that depth. Especially considering that it's pretty much a certainty that the victim would be suffering from extreme narcosis and unresponsive to help.

Then to purposely leave another diver in an air sharing situation would have been irresponsible as well.

I won't say that it's impossible to have rescued him if he had been found at 200', but under the circumstances it would have been highly unlikely to do it with any degree of safety.



You earlier said that he gave no safety briefing or anything whatsoever. Now you're saying he planned the dives. A dive plan would generally include a safety briefing.





There is a difference between giving a site briefing and planning the dive. If the DM actually planned the dive, what were the specific plans of the dive and why did the plan end up deviating?



That would be much help. Telling us exactly what was said would shed new light on the events leading up to the accident.

I've seen a lot of DM's in locations like this that do "skits" or "routines" because it helps engage the customer and gets them to pay attention to important information instead of just tuning them out. People generally tend to connect better with outgoing, colorful "tour guides" than they do with someone giving bland, clinical information.

So, I for one, would love to hear exactly what was said, just to have a better idea and opinion on where things went wrong.

OK, Sorry I don't know how to do the "multi quotes.

When I said Matthew did the Dive Plan he told us what the site was called, (Round Rock) he told us the depth and what the site looked like. How long the dive would be (20mins on a computer which he tried to give his computer to Pam my dive buddy which left him with none). Then he told a joke about two eggs in a frying pan, (no one laughed, he danced a little jig (something that looked like a leprechaun would do) that's when I thought to myself "Is this guy high'? And that was the end of the dive plan. Pam spoke up about being a New diver and Brendan being New and she did not want to go to a 100 ft. and I voiced that I DON'T dive to 100 ft. He ignored us. He tried to put his computer on Pam, she is saying "I don't need this. He kept doing it. I was saying she doesn't need it she is going to be with me. (I thought it was an extra computer) I didn't know it was his. We kept telling him we weren't going to a 100ft we were going to hover above them. He said how are you going to do that without a computer? I said I have a depth gauge and a watch I can look at. He seemed confused. (Yes, I know at this point we should never have gone diving with him but hind site is 20/20) Then Brendan got in the water, the couple from San Diego go in the water Pam and I were getting in the water when he said "you don't need the computer", "I'll use it" I about died!! Like I said I thought it was an extra one he was giving her NOT HIS. He was planning on leading a group with no computer. The only other person that had a computer was Brendan. We all were in the water. Matthew was the last to get in. From the boat he told us to go down and he would meet us at the bottom. We descended Pam and I to our 60ft with the rest of the group and her and I stayed at that depth. I pretty much stayed with her focused on her because she was having buoyancy problems the whole dive. When we got to the half way point at 10mins is when Matthew signaled to me there where only 6 dives. Why he picked me I don't know. And where we lost Brendan I don't know. No one knows. Only God and Brendan know, but it was around that point. And speculation is that he was lost somewhere right there because that is where the bottom sloped and went deeper and deeper and the group was making a left turn. Speculation is Brendan got NC and didn't make the turn kept going deeper and deeper, remember I said SPECULATION.

What I have learned from this is that I will never under any circumstances leave my Buddy (husband) to go with a less experienced diver again. And I will advise other divers not to go to a depth that is not within their limits. I will make sure there is safety equipment on the boat and I or others know how to use it. I will know how to use the radio and the call numbers of the boat. I will check out a dive shop before I dive with them and make sure they are operating under the laws of that country. I will be responsible for myself and only myself (of course my buddy). I am taking a First aid course to be certified in CPR and 100%02 and AED. I will be prepared for my next dive. I have also learned that SOME DM's are good for nothing other than selling you on your next course. Know who you are diving with!!

 

[Cave Diver]

What I have learned from this is that I will never under any circumstances leave my Buddy (husband) to go with a less experienced diver again. And I will advise other divers not to go to a depth that is not within their limits. I will make sure there is safety equipment on the boat and I or others know how to use it. I will know how to use the radio and the call numbers of the boat. I will check out a dive shop before I dive with them and make sure they are operating under the laws of that country. I will be responsible for myself and only myself (of course my buddy). I am taking a First aid course to be certified in CPR and 100%02 and AED. I will be prepared for my next dive. I have also learned that SOME DM's are good for nothing other than selling you on your next course. Know who you are diving with!!

Thank you for posting the rest of this information, some insightful things were in there.

It was a terribly hard way to learn these lessons but I'm glad to see that there is something positive that you are taking away from his death. This discussion has swung back and forth and got rather heated among participants at times, but ultimately some good information and lessons have come from it. Information and lessons that may save another's life.

That is perhaps, the best we can hope for from such a tragic loss.

 

[fosterboxermom]

Thank you for posting the rest of this information, some insightful things were in there.

It was a terribly hard way to learn these lessons but I'm glad to see that there is something positive that you are taking away from his death. This discussion has swung back and forth and got rather heated among participants at times, but ultimately some good information and lessons have come from it. Information and lessons that may save another's life.

That is perhaps, the best we can hope for from such a tragic loss.

This is the ONLY thing we can do with this horrible accident. It is the best way to honor Brendan as well and I don't want him to have died in vain. I also feel that that Matthew DM/OWI is probably in horrible pain from this. He has to be feeling some guilt. I know I do and I am dealing with it professionally. I hope he is as well. I think the like you said we need to learn from it and not place blame. I know I am guilty of doing that and it is natural for me to want to. There is a lot of blame to go around. And yes, everyone is only hearing my side of the story, I can't help that. I know Pam will NEVER come on the forum and probably legally Matthew won't either. So you are stuck with my version. People can take what they want from it and leave what they don't. I am grateful to the few who have IM'd me (you know who you are) and have given me words of encouragement, kind words and good criticism. I value it all. I know I have learned and grown immensly from this horrific accident.

 

[ScubaSteve]

This is the ONLY thing we can do with this horrible accident. It is the best way to honor Brendan as well and I don't want him to have died in vain. I also feel that that Matthew DM/OWI is probably in horrible pain from this. He has to be feeling some guilt. I know I do and I am dealing with it professionally. I hope he is as well. I think the like you said we need to learn from it and not place blame. I know I am guilty of doing that and it is natural for me to want to. There is a lot of blame to go around. And yes, everyone is only hearing my side of the story, I can't help that. I know Pam will NEVER come on the forum and probably legally Matthew won't either. So you are stuck with my version. People can take what they want from it and leave what they don't. I am grateful to the few who have IM'd me (you know who you are) and have given me words of encouragement, kind words and good criticism. I value it all. I know I have learned and grown immensly from this horrific accident.

While this thread has been difficult to get through at times and even painful to get through with all of the fighting and "name calling", I am very glad to see, just as I am sure everyone else is, that you have been able to take a lesson away from this horrific accident. I cannot imagine what you have been through and I commend you on your ability to maintain involvement in this thread while remaining composed and dignified. I pray I never have to find out, but I hope I can act as well as you have here if I ever find myself in your shoes. Thank you for your input and I truly hope that all of Brendan's family and friends can find peace knowing that he is living his next life now. We, as a collective community can hopefully take away some of the valuable information here and learn the same things as you. This community of divers is a close knit group that wants every diver to break the surface safely after every dive. We never enjoy hearing about the loss of a fellow diver irrespective of who it was or what happened. I for one will remember this accident the next time I hear of somebody putting too much faith or reponsibility on another diver (or DM).

 

[sqweezy]

LimLap, Whatever, I am not detroying anyones livihood. You weren't there. This DM was unprofessional from the start. Telling jokes, dancing, not doing a safety breifing. Knowing that he was a new diver. Not budding people up. Not do checks on air, No OK signs at all just taking off and leaving everyone to defend for themselves. One minor that hadn't had a dive in a year. We all told him of our experience. A DM's responsibility is to guide us on a dive point out cool stuff and make sure we are safe and get back to the boat, end of story and if you can't do that then you shouldn't be a DM either!

i did not read all 53 pages. but wasnt this man an adult, if so he should have had some personal accountabilty for his own well being?