Diver Death in Cayman

[Riger]

At this rate this thread will be relegated to the cheeze & whine section (or shut down) again before it reaches 1000 posts.

Best Regards
Richard

 

[ScubaSteve]

At this rate this thread will be relegated to the cheeze & whine section (or shut down) again before it reaches 1000 posts.

Best Regards
Richard

I have not removed my subscription because I maintain hope that something of substance gets posted that has not already been beaten to death....so far so bad....nothing of substance. Just people saying the same darn things. Oh well, I will keep checking.....come on W&C

 

[fosterboxermom]

That's true. If someone does not want to take responsibility for themselves as a certified O/W SCUBA Diver as they were trained, then they should just get the Scuba Diver cert or do a Discover SCUBA or resort course. They will be supervised much closer and kept to stricter limits. Even then, however, that diver cannot be protected from everything or from him/herself, and still has risk.

There is an idea among new divers that instructors and other dive professionals are "Dive Gods" and can keep them safe, and that is a false sense of security. If you are a student, they will do their best to stay close and stay within limits and follow protocols. If you are a certified diver, you should be planning your dive and diving your plan. If a leader is leading a group and one diver goes significantly away from the group, does the one leader look for the single diver or stay with the rest of the group? He/she will probably not risk the group for the individual diver. A leader also cannot be expected to take undue risk to themselves either in rescuing others.

Please remember that this dive was not bottomless and the wall that this group was diving did not have a steep drop-off. For the diver to swim his way all the way out and down to 340 feet by himself took a lot of WORK. He did not just drop to 340 feet. That information is a very important part of this puzzle.

Now let's say that the diver did drop quickly to 340 feet. A leader might try to descend part of the way and catch the diver or signal them to get their attention, but they cannot be expected to follow a diver indefinitely or put themselves at risk. They also cannot put the rest of the group at risk.

For our own safety, we all need to be proficient, self-reliant divers who stay within our training, limits and experience and use the appropriate equipment for the dives we do.

I have to jump in here and ask everyone a question. At the half way point when the DM discovered Brendan was missing (this is where the bottom sloped off and went down to a very deep depth). What should he have done?

Continued the Dive?

Aborted the Dive?

Tell everyone to stay put and done a quick swim around to see if Brendan went to the drop off and was down too deep and if he saw him signal to him to come up?

What if he saw Brendan down too deep say (200ft) could he have done a rescue? Could he have taken someone's tank (letting them use the other's person octopus) and reg and gone to get Brendan? (If Instructor's have that kind of training and Matthew is an Instructor) I don't know.....

Everyone is saying that we should have planned our own dive. Maybe so, but that isn't what happened. Matthew the DM planned it for us. He told us where we were going. He did the dive plan. Yes, I know we could have said NO, but with all the different diver experiences I think we ALL thought he would be the best one to plan the dive. However, until he told me we were going to 100ft then I said NO. That is when it should have stopped. Plus it all started at the dive op telling Brendan he would be fine and safe.

Also, I think the dive op should hold some responsibility. When you check in you show your c-card. They COULD say we can only take you on a 60ft dive is that acceptable with you? I know they want to make money (and yes I know there is no depth police) but if they have 6 or 8 diver's on the boat and some are OW then they have AWO if what you all are saying is they can take the boat anywhere and tell everyone what the site is buddy up, know your limits and be back on the boat in your allowable dive time. Now the AOW Could be fine since they have taken a Nav course but the OW could be screwed especially since most reefs look a lot alike. At least to me. I dive in a lot of different places so all the sites would be new to me. And I don't remember learning in OW being taught how to do a dive plan without a nav course or using a compass.

Sorry I guess I asked too many things in this post. I didn't know the thread was back.

 

[fosterboxermom]

Who is responsible for safe diving profiles? Get real. It is the diver. Every diver new and old learns safe diving profiles and blaming anyone for anothers stupidity and inability to learn is flat out wrong.


Do you see the circular logic here or are you so intent on blaming everyone around you and everyone but the guy who went deep. I highlighted the key points so that you may see the answer you gave to yourself. In case you did not get it, the Diver was warned, probably dozens of times and even had to pass a test stating he knew and was warned.


You just have no way of knowing this. It is absurd that you keep harping on this fact. stated in a post almost to the top that I have dove with these guys and in particular the DM/OWS in question and although he is very entertaining, he is also extremely thourough in every predive breifing I have seen him do. Almost to the point of annoying and it is my "SPECULATION" these people on the boat tunes him out. After all, the one diver failed to oboy the bottom limits, who is to say he would have listened to the predive anyway?


Define an improper site. These dives ore completely proper, I take my students on them all the time. They are great safe dive sites. There are few improper sites but more improper divers. The key again is you are blaming the DM, blaming the operator and now blaming the dive site itself. Soon I suspect you will blame the fish.

So tell me if the Diver was warned and Matthew the DM/Captain on the boat is OWI which means he teaches and is two levels ABOVE a DM, you want to tell me the DM (Matthew) knew this guy was a NEW diver and CHOOSE to take him to a 100 ft for a TEST to see if this guy was going to say NO I was warned not to go to this depth? Is this a common practice for OWI/DM's? Even though the OWI is taking me here and the dive op said I would be fine? New diver's should be aware that the dive op could be doing this just to see if you are going to object. Sometimes you ask at the dive shop where you are going and they say they don't know until they get out on the water. You have already paid your money. NO REFUNDS. So if they take you to a dive spot that you are certified to do you have to sit out. Fair? This dive op knew in advance most of the diver's were inexperienced and NEVER should have taken ANY of us to that dive spot. END OF STORY!

And no for your information we did not "tune" him out as you might say. I can tell you EVERYTHING he said and did on that boat because in my mind I was thinking "Is this guy high"? We even asked the Detective to do a tox screen on him that is how strange he acted at times. And as for Brendan I can't say what he was thinking, but I observed him and he was very quiet and I saw him watching Matthew alot. So I speculate he was paying quite a bit of attention to what or there lack of what Matthew was saying.

 

[CDNScubaMoose]

scuba moose, all of us sucked when we first strarted diving. That is a given. THAT IS THE POINT!This "dive guide" should have known that and been more alert.

Perhaps the difference between us then is that I knew that because I sucked that I need to improve on myself and not have false expectations of others. I was lucky that I found some mentors that worked with me and to this day I am eternally grateful for their patience and dedication. I have seen my share of new divers that assume they are invicible or the ones that assume others will look after them. I think this tragedy has demonstrated that neither approach is acceptable. However the POINT of this thread, since it is in the incidents and accidents forum is to try to prevent a reoccurance of it. So far I haven't seen many comments from you that are constructive designed to help prevent this from happening again ... as an instructor I want to know what I can do to improve the courses I teach. Already I have increased the number of times that I stress personal responsibility during class, I have come up with a new way (for me at least) approach to test how well dive planning is getting through to the students. So instead of laying blame - lets try and be constructive, what can we do to improve the reality that personal responsibility is a corner stone of diving or do we move the conversation towards enforcement and remove the personal freedom that we currently have in diving. Are you for education or enforcement?

Suffice it to say, we just don't agree here and your constant avoidance of my questions indicates to me that you are not open to a fair discussin. As they say, we're done. Safe diving, scuba moose.

No we probably never will agree on this - I suspect there are other issues at play here as to why I am stronger proponent of self responsibility then you are. I have no idea what they are but as far as I know I have answered your questions - the DM screwed the pooch when he chose a site that required divers to think for themselves and assumed that they had proper training and they would use that training. If the deceased wanted to go to 100', then he has already demonstrated he is ignoring some of his training. However, to your second question - I question if anything the DM would have said or done would have prevented someone who was already ignoring his training. OW cert means you have the training to plan and execute a dive in conditions similar to what you have been trained in - if this is not the case then please request a Scuba Diver cert instead of an OW cert.

 

[Cave Diver]

What if he saw Brendan down too deep say (200ft) could he have done a rescue? Could he have taken someone's tank (letting them use the other's person octopus) and reg and gone to get Brendan? (If Instructor's have that kind of training and Matthew is an Instructor) I don't know.....

The first rule of rescue is don't become a victim yourself.

An instructor has rescue training, but that doesnt mean he has the requisite training to go to 200'+ OR effect a rescue from that type of depth.

Two partially used tanks is hardly sufficient gas planning to try and go to that depth. Especially considering that it's pretty much a certainty that the victim would be suffering from extreme narcosis and unresponsive to help.

Then to purposely leave another diver in an air sharing situation would have been irresponsible as well.

I won't say that it's impossible to have rescued him if he had been found at 200', but under the circumstances it would have been highly unlikely to do it with any degree of safety.

Everyone is saying that we should have planned our own dive. Maybe so, but that isn't what happened. Matthew the DM planned it for us. He told us where we were going. He did the dive plan.

You earlier said that he gave no safety briefing or anything whatsoever. Now you're saying he planned the dives. A dive plan would generally include a safety briefing.

LimLap, Whatever, I am not detroying anyones livihood. You weren't there. This DM was unprofessional from the start. Telling jokes, dancing, not doing a safety breifing.

Everyone is saying that we should have planned our own dive. Maybe so, but that isn't what happened. Matthew the DM planned it for us. He told us where we were going. He did the dive plan. Yes, I know we could have said NO, but with all the different diver experiences I think we ALL thought he would be the best one to plan the dive. However, until he told me we were going to 100ft then I said NO. That is when it should have stopped. Plus it all started at the dive op telling Brendan he would be fine and safe.

There is a difference between giving a site briefing and planning the dive. If the DM actually planned the dive, what were the specific plans of the dive and why did the plan end up deviating?

And no for your information we did not "tune" him out as you might say. I can tell you EVERYTHING he said and did on that boat because in my mind I was thinking "Is this guy high"? We even asked the Detective to do a tox screen on him that is how strange he acted at times. And as for Brendan I can't say what he was thinking, but I observed him and he was very quiet and I saw him watching Matthew alot. So I speculate he was paying quite a bit of attention to what or there lack of what Matthew was saying.

That would be much help. Telling us exactly what was said would shed new light on the events leading up to the accident.

I've seen a lot of DM's in locations like this that do "skits" or "routines" because it helps engage the customer and gets them to pay attention to important information instead of just tuning them out. People generally tend to connect better with outgoing, colorful "tour guides" than they do with someone giving bland, clinical information.

So, I for one, would love to hear exactly what was said, just to have a better idea and opinion on where things went wrong.

 

[Web Monkey]

So ..... It's been a while.

Is there anybody that actually knows what's happening (or if anything is happening) with this incident?

Terry

 

[Web Monkey]

There is a difference between giving a site briefing and planning the dive. If the DM actually planned the dive, what were the specific plans of the dive and why did the plan end up deviating?

I've been on those dives with this dive op (and many other very similar dive ops) and the plan consists of "follow me".

The group becomes very spread out and at least on a wall dive, it's common to see new divers with poor awareness or buoyancy control going much deeper than they expected to.

Regardless of the plan, no reasonable dive leader would expect a diver with 2 dives to be able to handle much more of a plan than "don't forget to breathe". Many new divers are so stunned by what they're seeing that they don't even watch their tank pressure and certainly don't watch their depth.

The cert agencies know this also, which is one of the reasons they recommend a 60' limit for new divers. At 60' even if someone really screws up, drains their tank and bolts for the surface, chances are excellent that as long as they "don't forget to breathe" (or in this case exhale), everything will be just fine.

I'm not saying it's right or that the victim doesn't have any responsibility, but that knowing how new divers behave, the DM (or shop) chose the site poorly.

Terry

 

[CDNScubaMoose]

I have to jump in here and ask everyone a question. At the half way point when the DM discovered Brendan was missing (this is where the bottom sloped off and went down to a very deep depth). What should he have done?

Excellent question - what did the DM assume the deceased had done. As an instructor - going down to over 200' would be very low on my list of possibilities (unless I had seen him having bouyancy control issues before hand).

Continued the Dive?

Aborted the Dive?

Tell everyone to stay put and done a quick swim around to see if Brendan went to the drop off and was down too deep and if he saw him signal to him to come up?

Only way to answer this would be to know what the DM thought had happened. If he assumed that the new diver had sucked back his air and gone back up without giving any indication ... just some of the speculation - only the DM in question would be able to tell us why, once we have that information then we could give our opinions.

What if he saw Brendan down too deep say (200ft) could he have done a rescue? Could he have taken someone's tank (letting them use the other's person octopus) and reg and gone to get Brendan? (If Instructor's have that kind of training and Matthew is an Instructor) I don't know.....?

I can't speak for every DM or instructor - but personally I wouldn't have gone that deep. Even with the training, you don't have the equipment to give yourself a good chance of success with a proper plan - let alone spur of the moment. I have been on a wreck at 130' with ean 28 in twin tanks on my back when I saw two divers at 148' having major issues with narcosis ... both were my friends but all I could do was sit and hope they solved the problems and got out of the situation they had put themselves in.

Also, I think the dive op should hold some responsibility. When you check in you show your c-card. They COULD say we can only take you on a 60ft dive is that acceptable with you? I know they want to make money (and yes I know there is no depth police) but if they have 6 or 8 diver's on the boat and some are OW then they have AWO if what you all are saying is they can take the boat anywhere and tell everyone what the site is buddy up, know your limits and be back on the boat in your allowable dive time. Now the AOW Could be fine since they have taken a Nav course but the OW could be screwed especially since most reefs look a lot alike. At least to me. I dive in a lot of different places so all the sites would be new to me. And I don't remember learning in OW being taught how to do a dive plan without a nav course or using a compass.

Sorry I guess I asked too many things in this post. I didn't know the thread was back.

I agree the dive op should hold some responsibility. The LDS that I work for has a very strict policy about not letting non-AOW diver on advanced dives. However - there are always a dive op that will take someone's money if that person wants to do a certain dive.

 

[ScubaSteve]

I'm not saying it's right or that the victim doesn't have any responsibility, but that knowing how new divers behave, the DM (or shop) chose the site poorly.

Absolutely correct from what I have taken from this and other discussions about this site/operator.