Diver Death in Cayman

[pilot fish]

DM role is to ENCOURAGE responsible dive practices - not to ENFORCE them.

That minimal input from the "dive guide" was not even done.

You can not protect people from themselves. It is however the responsibility of his original instructor to EDUCATE about the risks of diving, how to minimize the risks and to make proper decisions. That said - it is still the RIGHT of the diver to ignore his training and do whatever he wants to.

I can see your focus is ONLY on his original training, or lack thereof, but none for this "dive guide on this dive." Why is that?

You can keep running from my questions [ I had the courtesy to answer yours ] but they are still hanging out there. If the "dive guide" had just told this diver that he would not take him to 100 ft, and that he advised against it for the diver to do alone and picked a more suitable site for a beginner, with a hard bottom of 60 to 80 ft, do you think this diver would have survived this dive?

 

[pilot fish]

Precisely. Was it a responsible dive practice not tell this beginner diver that 100 ft dive was not the right thing to do? Was it responsible to take two brand new divers to a wall dive that had a slopping bottom of up to 345 ft, and split them up into two groups? Besides the jokes, and the tip dance, what the hell did this "dive guide" do?

Not even the encouragement of responsible dive practices, that you'd limit the DM's duty to, seems to have occurred in this case.

 

[joker31]

OK I just found this thread and only read the first 7 pages (didn't feel like reading 73 pages)..... So if this was already covered, sorry.
A few people were arguing over how deep a diver can go. I teach NAUI so forgive me if PADI is a little different. I tell my OW students all the time that they are trained to dive to no more than 60ft. I also tell them that there is no such thing as "Scuba Police". No one will take your card away or give you a ticket if you go deeper.
How did the pioneers of our sport do it? Someone had to 'break' the rules to get to where we are now...... The deepest dive ever is just over 1000ft (300m). How did anyone ever get there? People had to push the limits to reach these depts, and come up with the training in the first place.
Now, no I don't think everyone should put the rules they learn in class to the side and ignore them. All I am trying to say is that it is up to the diver to police themselves..... No one else will do it.
It is on the diver to provide for their own safety.

 

[joker31]

I think a lot of these problem could be fixed with the training requirements. I teach at a University. Our class is 12-14 weeks long (depending on the semester). Our students get a lot more time in the pool and are much more comfortable with their equipment and skills than the average dive shop diver. In fact I would go on the say our newly certified OW divers are better than most newly certified dive shop adv divers.... Not saying I am a better instructor, just that my students have had more time in a controlled environment. I know this solution doesn't work well for dive shops (revolving door buisness). But whats more important? Certifying QUALITY divers, or QUANTITY of divers?

 

[Thalassamania]

How did the pioneers of our sport do it?

With great care, trust me our first dives were not to 345 or even 145 feet, they were shallow and very gradually worked deeper.

Someone had to 'break' the rules to get to where we are now......

There were no "rules" to be broken ... the typical self imposed limit was not 130 but 190 because that was where you had to shift from Standard Air Tables to the less well tested Exceptional Exposure Tables.

The deepest dive ever is just over 1000ft (300m). How did anyone ever get there?

It took them, quite literally, thousands of dives and lots of specialized gear.

People had to push the limits to reach these depts, and come up with the training in the first place.

No one that I know will "train" you to go to 1000 ft.

Now, no I don't think everyone should put the rules they learn in class to the side and ignore them. All I am trying to say is that it is up to the diver to police themselves..... No one else will do it.
It is on the diver to provide for their own safety.

I agree with you, in principal, but a calypso dancing DM who takes a brand new diver to 100 feet over a steep drop off and then proceeds to lose him ... well ... that's another story, it's wrong, just as it'd be wrong to shove a snow bunny off into Baldy Chutes at Alta; or to take a novice out for a 35,000 foot HALO jump. Someone there should have known better.

 

[Pre BC]

Is there a source that the late comers to this thread can go to read an account of what actually happened on the ill fated dive? My internet searches have turned up articles that talk about everything except what actually happened.

It is difficult to be a constructive part of the conversation without a known set of facts... I can speculate about conjecture all day... It just isn't particularly insightful!!!

Thanks in advance for the link,

P

 

[Web Monkey]

The diver in question had false expecations about the role of a DM in this setting and I am pissed off as to why this was the case.

I think you'll find that people's expectation of the DM's role comes from the name "DiveMaster" which has a dictionary definition and commonly used meaning that encompasses all the things a lot of people think it does. This is the common definition, not PADI's lawyer-approved "cover our ass" definition:

From: divemaster definition | Dictionary.com

Noun a professional qualified to oversee scuba diving operations, as in salvage work or at a resort, and responsible for procedures and safety, monitoring the whereabouts of divers underwater or at the surface, and making rescues when necessary.

While I personally know DM's that I wouldn't trust to keep my lunch safe, new divers tend to beleive that anybody who says they're a "DM" will "keep them safe" in some form or another.

Terry

 

[joker31]

Thalassamania I think you might have missed the point of my posts. Trust me I know no pioneer of diving when to 350ft on their first dive. My point was if there was a stop sign that no one could pass at 100ft then no one would have ever been deeper!
With what I have read about what happened on this dive, I agree that the DM has some responsibility. Again without all the details, remember there are two sides to every story, and somewhere in the middle is the truth. However, I have always and will always teach my students that they have to take care of themselves. "Never get yourself into something you can't get yourself out of!"
It's hard to know if something could have been done differently. Sounds to me like this diver never should have been in the water in the first place, and he's the one who should have made that call. Responsible party #1 = diver

 

[joker31]

Thalassamania just a quick question.... I you just finished a skydive cert would you follow a jumpmaster on a "35,000 foot HALO" jump? If you said no then I guess we are on the same side. Self responsibility....... Not taking a shot at you, I promise

 

[Thalassamania]

I would not jump, but then I am very, very risk adverse and a long term non-believer in "authority figures." Most people are not that way, and people who hold forth as authority figures or experts (like Instructors who are acting in the role of a DM or DG) need to take a responsibility for the predictable effect that they often have on reasonable people who think that they are hiring that expertise.