Diver Death in Cayman

[ScubaSteve]

You are now asking the questions I have been asking for pages. Hope you have better luck than I did getting an answer.

I'm not reading anyone's mind, especially this poor victim. God bless him. I was told certain things and I can't say what that is. yeah, I know, it sounds like horse hockey. I just have to absorb those comments.

Based on your last reply to Terry, I retracted my comment.

 

[pilot fish]

Thanks, Steve. Truely, I understand where you are coming from. I remember years ago on this board reading about some lady, she was the OP, that claimed to have been altered FOR LIFE by being gropped by a DM at 60 ft, while being instructed, wearing a wetsuit and BC, while her husband was on the dive. I was agressively atacked because I did not believe her, or offer my prayers for her emotional "recovery"

Based on your last reply to Terry, I retracted my comment.

 

[Web Monkey]

I had no clue what the difference was either, or that such a title existed. I think it's a term that is used ex post facto a fatality to exonerate dive ops.

I believe it does have a significant bearing on this case , DG v. DM, because the victim and his girlfriend might not have dove with just a DG, let alone go to 100 ft. I can't say how I know this fact, so I'll just say, I assume.

I'm going with your first paragraph, but would call BS on anybody that tried to use it as a defence. I'm willing to bet that nobody in the world knows what the responsibilities of a "Dive Guide" are unless they read the latest Training Standards, and even then, the level of responsibility and difference between a DG and DM is unclear.

From where I stand, if a shop sells you a boat ride and sends someone out to dive with you, the employee is expected to, at the very least, not take you somewhere your certification level specifically prohibits you from diving.

The guy would have been safer if the the boat driver just parked the boat somewhere not-too-deep, stayed on the boat and said "stick with your buddy, come back before you run out of air and don't touch anything."

Terry

 

[ScubaSteve]

From where I stand, if a shop sells you a boat ride and sends someone out to dive with you, the employee is expected to, at the very least, not take you somewhere your certification level specifically prohibits you from diving.

The guy would have been safer if the the boat driver just parked the boat somewhere not-too-deep, stayed on the boat and said "stick with your buddy, come back before you run out of air and don't touch anything."

Terry

 

[Web Monkey]

You're welcome!

I apologise to everybody for the number of posts I have in this thread. It just really pisses me off when a diver gets killed for doing nothing more than trusting the people who he believed would keep him safe.

Terry

 

[ScubaSteve]

You're welcome!

I apologise to everybody for the number of posts I have in this thread. It just really pisses me off when a diver gets killed for doing nothing more than trusting the people who he believed would keep him safe.

Terry

Hey watch it man....what are you saying about me because I have a couple on you . Hopefully the emotions can cool now and maybe everybody will even be able to take away from this thread a little useful information for future reference. This is an unfortunate situation but it seems to occur way too much so there is OBVIOUSLY a disconnect. If nobody else will recognize it, we as the divers need to recognize it and alter our behaviour and expectations accordingly.


User NamePosts
pilot fish 68
fosterboxermom 60
GaryLee 39
ScubaSteve 33
Riger 29
Web Monkey 28
Thalassamania 23

 

[bsee65]

Liability is what most of this discussion has been about. Instead of rationally discussing the factors that led to this diver's death and what could have been done to avoid it, it has become a pissing contest.

Clearly, there is some group of dive "professionals" out there who are more concerned with liability and income than they are with service and safety. Clearly, there are also some people on the other side who want to put a load of blame on the DM involved with this incident. The DM and his supporters don't want to allow even 1% of the blame to be affixed to them or the dive operator. They know that even the slightest blame could lead to lawsuits and have other repercussions that would impact their operations, so they are super-aggressive about defending their position. I can understand that, but I still think it is irresponsible.

In the past ten pages or so, the question arose as to whether the victim would have planned to go to 100' if he didn't believe the DM would be there to provide support. While none of us are mind readers, I doubt it. Here's a new diver who would like to experience that depth. He knows it isn't going to be likely in Colorado or diving alone with his wife. He has the opportunity to try it in a relatively safe environment with a professional diver/instructor on hand to help if something doesn't go according to plan, so he tries it. If the "DM" remained on the boat, he probably dives around 60' with his friends.

This makes me wonder if there isn't some emergency light/sound generator that a diver could deploy under water if in trouble. Sound carries well in water, so wouldn't some form of beeper let others know you were in trouble and then they could look for your light stick or some such,or maybe even some form of non-toxic, positively bouyant oil slick that would lead to you.

I also wonder how this guy got so far away for so long without being seen in water that allegedly had 100' visibility. If my fiance is going down to 100' for the first time under these conditions, then I am hovering at 60' to watch the descent and periodically glancing down to see how it's going. If I'm the DM, then I am trying to keep track of my divers. How deep must he have been before anyone realized he was gone for him to be out of sight?

 

[Thalassamania]

If I'm the DM, then I am trying to keep track of my divers. How deep must he have been before anyone realized he was gone for him to be out of sight?

That's where I feel that there was a clear breach of duty.

 

[InTheDrink]

Thoughts:

a) Mod made a mistake demoting thread. First and second hand witness on the thread - not to be wasted. Tidying up would have made more sense - wasted this way. Thread was always going to get heated - unavoidable and not really a problem. I don't think trying to establish some clarity from the confusion of the circumstances/roles/responsibilities is 'whine'.

b) is there any function for chairing on ScubaBoard? Contentious threads might possibly benefit from an objective chair. Would cut out some white noise. Anyone any idea whether this is feasible, or indeed desirable?

c) appears to be a growing consensus that irrespective of the name (DG/DM), taking a novice to this kind of dive is wrong

d) marketing agencies such as PADI should, but won't, place chilling warnings such as JimLaps in their material as it would hurt the bottom line. Until then placing the burden of responsibility on novice divers to be distrustful of figures of authority in a new sport is meaningless in terms of achieving results - i.e. stopping pointless injuries and deaths

e) pilot fish has won the 'most posts' competition. I was pretty upset I didn't even make it to the list. I blame it on the time zone difference. And of course, the DM.

 

[bsee65]

Thoughts:

a) Mod made a mistake demoting thread. First and second hand witness on the thread - not to be wasted. Tidying up would have made more sense - wasted this way. Thread was always going to get heated - unavoidable and not really a problem. I don't think trying to establish some clarity from the confusion of the circumstances/roles/responsibilities is 'whine'.

b) is there any function for chairing on ScubaBoard? Contentious threads might possibly benefit from an objective chair. Would cut out some white noise. Anyone any idea whether this is feasible, or indeed desirable?

c) appears to be a growing consensus that irrespective of the name (DG/DM), taking a novice to this kind of dive is wrong

d) marketing agencies such as PADI should, but won't, place chilling warnings such as JimLaps in their material as it would hurt the bottom line. Until then placing the burden of responsibility on novice divers to be distrustful of figures of authority in a new sport is meaningless in terms of achieving results - i.e. stopping pointless injuries and deaths

e) pilot fish has won the 'most posts' competition. I was pretty upset I didn't even make it to the list. I blame it on the time zone difference. And of course, the DM.

a) agreed.

b) good idea, but really just the function of the moderator unless you're in a live chat. Otherwise, you're looking for some sort of arbitor, and objectivity would be impossible.

c) I wish this were true, but it's still a thick line between those who put it all on the diver and those who believe a DM should provide more guidance.

d) Absolutely, but how can you expect PADI to say that the divers that they have certified for rescue, instruction and dive management can't actually be trusted to help keep you safe? It takes an independent thinker who is solely interested in the skill and safety of the diver to ensure that message gets across. That could be a PADI instructor who shoots straight, but is more likely to be a guy like Jim.

e) no comment...

-bob