Diver Death in Cayman

[redstrom]

Does anyone see the first real bad blunder in this tragic event, the failure of dive shop to flag this diver as brand new and not conveying that fact to the DM, as the first step in this poor man's death?

DISAGREE --that's the second blunder!

YOU as a diver is first and foremost responsible for YOURSELF. Hence you have an obligation to understand what environment you are diving in, what the profiles look like, and relate that to you own experience level. If you are not certified, comfortable, or for whatever reason not able to dive to 100ft (which is the common profile on a first dive in the caymans --which you should have known going there) then you are obligated to convey that to the shop or DM.

It bothers me that the majority of people here in the good ole US always look for someone else to blame for their own actions.

That said the shop should have checked and there's no excuse for the DM not keeping track of the flock. But those are seconds and third blunders.

 

[Thalassamania]

Does the facility bear some responsibility? Clearly yes.

Does the DM bear some responsibility? Clearly yes.

Does the new diver bear some responsibility? Clearly yes.

The real question is how to partition it.

 

[fosterboxermom]

I do feel sorry for you, everyone else involved, including the poor DM. The unfortunately lost diver screwed up badly and paid dearly but he did it to himself. That the DM didn't think of the best words at a time of tragedy is understandable enough.


Yep.


Yeah, if you want a blog site where no one is allowed to comment, there are many free ones available on the net. You may not get many readers unless you present your case very differently than you have here, but you can. Here, we comment, hopefully for the good of all.

FBMom, you don't list your training certs or dive location experiences on your profile, but if you want to dive with babysitting DMs, your choices are limited. I've been fortunate to have dived here and there all around North America and some of the Caribbean, and I have survived some serious screw ups on my own, but babysitting DMs are not the norm. Just depends on where you go, whom you go with, and what terms - but it's rare. Was not the case for me in Puget Sound's San Juans, California, St.Lawrence, North Carolina, Exumas, Biminis, Roatan, Belize, etc - often not the case in the Florida Keys or Cozumel even, depending on the sites & Ops.

Where have you dived that you became so accustomed to babysitting DMs, please...?


Eh, PF - I know you dive Coz where they do tend to watch your closer, but most places look at your C-card and accept that you are certified. "When you leave the US, you leave the US. Questions?" Out the Caribbean, rules are only guidelines - suggestion. I did 100 ft on my third Resort Dive, then got certified. It wasn't right, but it happens.

Sorry the couple did not do their pre-trip research with us here on New Divers forum, but most don't bother. It's usually more of "Let's try scuba and see if we like it?" Luck is such a kind lady overall.


Just wanted to say: Well Said!


I do wonder? Anyone know if narcosis can be established in a post mortem? I don't think so, but I don't know? And I am wondering about that 300+ ft dive computer log too...?


Oh good idea, but I doubt the Operator would want to post here - while dealing with the real investigations there, and since it all sounds weak.

FBMom, I see that you are not open to correction. Best wishes...

So basically what I am finding out is this is really a forum for DM's? And now you want to give this information that I have posted to the Dive op. You are not here for other diver's you are here to protect your own DM's a@@s. Am I correct?

My cert is OW. I was certified by the Navy in Guam. I have dived Micronesia, Hawaii, Cozumel, Cancun, CA, FL, Puerto Rico, Bermuda, Belize, Bonaire, Aruba, St. Lucia, Dominica, St. Thomas, Tortola, Grenada, Barbados. I have done two shark dives and a dophin dive. I have been certified since 1989.

 

[fosterboxermom]

Oh I forgot the Cayman Isands. The last dive I did.

 

[DandyDon]

So basically what I am finding out is this is really a forum for DM's? And now you want to give this information that I have posted to the Dive op. You are not here for other diver's you are here to protect your own DM's a@@s. Am I correct?

Nope, it's for discussion, and no one here gets to control it - not you, not me, not even the owner.

What you want is a blog with no comments. Try MySpace | A Place for Friends

My cert is OW. I was certified by the Navy in Guam. I have dived Micronesia, Hawaii, Cozumel, Cancun, CA, FL, Puerto Rico, Bermuda, Belize, Bonaire, Aruba, St. Lucia, Dominica, St. Thomas, Tortola, Grenada, Barbados. I have done two shark dives and a dophin dive. I have been certified since 1989.

Thank you - wondered. And you have always had DMs overseeing all of your moves? Surely not...?

 

[Byte Me]

Yes, I do. And we told him over and over again on the boat but he was so busy ignoring us and gearing up our gear that it when in one ear and out the other. This didn't have to happen. I think he was thinking if he did all this stuff for us we would give him a good tip.

So now a good tip was the DMs motive? I thought he was just a "moron" (your post #32 in this thread).

I've read this whole sad tale and what I've been able to come away with is, this was a preventable tragedy, yes. But preventable by just about everyone involved. I'm still not clear on if the deceased WANTED to go down to 100ft and if in fact the DM was his 1:1 buddy. One thing I can infer is that the DM certainly didn't think so! The other thing I can come away with is there is obviously a WIDE range of opinion on what the role of a DM is - and that obviously caused a problem in this case. However, no so much so that the dive was canceled.

To the OP, ms. fosterboxermom, as others have stated in this thread your approach was, in a word, off. While I understand you're grieving, to throw a locations entire dive industry under the bus with blanket statements (your post #1 in this thread) is pretty far out of line, especially when no facts were provided. From the beginning facts had to be drawn out of you and the things you did provide voluntarily were wrong (PADI depth limits, narcosis "facts", etc.) or assumptions. Then in the middle of this your post #55 you again throw the Cayman dive industry under the bus with "they're ignoring laws because they're only after the money". Followed closely by "He F'd up and no one can convice me otherwise." So since no one can convince you of anything else other than what you KNOW to be true what's your point here? Based on your responses to those that have agreed with you (gushing praise and thanks) I can only guess it's to try and find comfort from everyone telling you they agree with you.

Unfortunately people come to this forum to learn. I hope you find your peace but all I've learned is that in all situations I'm responsible for myself underwater - and if I'm not comfortable doing something I'm not gonna do it. But I came here with that...

 

[gene02]

Yes I was on the dive, he was not my dive buddy he was suppose to be with the DM! He somehow went to 346ft. according to his dive computer. I did not see him because I choose not to dive to a 100 ft which was the dive plan. I stayed at 60ft with his fiancee' because she and he were both new diver's and she did not want to dive to a 100ft either. That's about all I can tell you at this point.

In one of the first statements in the thread you say I choose not to dive to a 100 ft which was the dive plan, Must have had a brief if there was a plan.
DM did his job here.
Divers ego push the limits.

Associated Press:
updated 2:19 p.m. ET April 27, 2009
SAN JUAN, Puerto Rico - Police in the Cayman Islands say an American tourist has died on an organized dive off Grand Cayman.

Police spokeswoman Deborah Denis says the 58-year-old man from Colorado Springs, Colorado, was diving with four other people when the outfitter reported that he had gone missing. His name has not been released.

Denis says a fishing vessel reported finding the body floating in the water Sunday afternoon moments before the company, Divers Down, alerted authorities. People on the fishing boat performed CPR on their way to shore before the victim was pronounced dead.

Denis said Monday that police are investigating as is routine for all water-related deaths.

A man who answered the phone at Divers Down declined to comment.

Here is the MSN article!

American tourist dies on dive in Cayman Islands - News- msnbc.com

S.O.P. DID NOT work well here if body is found before he was ever reported missing I just have a huge problem with this. per the media and I'm not sure what that is worth.

The lessons here as I see them are.
1)charter booked a dive customer was not qualified for the dive or let customer book dive he/she was not qualified for. flip the coin

2)3 divers on this charter should not have been there period. 2 of these divers made a choice to dive in the limits they was trained for 1 did not and for that choice unfortunately he lost his life.

3)Major communication breakdown between ticket office a charter and DM, This is a industry problem because as stated many time on this board the only cert anyone ask for in most cases is nitrox.

4)As a new diver I will stick with what I am trained for.

Stories like this is why my wife gives me a hard time about diving.
Again sorry for the loss of a friend and for the family members my prayers are that GOD will show you comfort soon.

 

[pilot fish]

Eh, PF - I know you dive Coz where they do tend to watch your closer, but most places look at your C-card and accept that you are certified. "When you leave the US, you leave the US. Questions?" Out the Caribbean, rules are only guidelines - suggestion. I did 100 ft on my third Resort Dive, then got certified. It wasn't right, but it happens.

In Roatan on my 8th or so dive post ow cert , I went to a 100 ft with an experienced lady diver that was holding my hand, yeah, she really was. I said on the boat that I wondered how long it would be till I was ready to go to 100 ft, on the next dive she was down at 85 ft, swam up to me at 75 ft and took me down to 100 ft. I looked at her puter, 101 ft my puter 100 ft, gave her the ok sign and swam back up to my buddy. She swam back to her hubby. Yup, I have made my share of mistakes, as ya'll can attest to, since I posted some of them on this board My first dive, post cert, very first, was to 82 ft, with no assigned buddy. I WAS CLUELESS and very lucky.

My point is, if it is a PADI shop, no matter where, he should have been flagged as a newbie. If that was done, nothing in this death tale occurs.

 

[pilot fish]

Does the facility bear some responsibility? Clearly yes.

Does the DM bear some responsibility? Clearly yes.

Does the new diver bear some responsibility? Clearly yes.

The real question is how to partition it.

I agree with you exactly. It will be deemed contributory negligence.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Does the facility bear some responsibility? Clearly yes.

Does the DM bear some responsibility? Clearly yes.

Does the new diver bear some responsibility? Clearly yes.

The real question is how to partition it.

What about the original instructor in Colorado who was unable, unwilling, or neglected to convey to the diver what his limits were, what he should do if those limits were about to be exceeded, and how dangerous exceeding those limits can be. This is where it all starts. I applaud those who are new and realize how serious these things are and bet that the instructor they had said or did something to get this through to them. Too bad that not everyone has this mindset coming out of many OW classes these days. I do agree that there is some blame to be placed on all of these and would also include any agency that allows ops, boats, DM's, Instructors, and the puppy(instructor) mills that turn them out to get away with this kind of behavior.