Diver Death in Cayman

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There may very well be but if none of them are able to put together what I appear to be a packet of facts then I will not put enough faith in their story to believe it and will therefore not pass judgement either way.

Admittedly, the absence of a complete and telling set of facts that condemn the operator beyond all doubt allows some wiggle room. The fact, however, that multiple people are complaining about an operation is a clear indication that there is something wrong. Are expectations being set incorrectly, are unsafe practices being used, are they pricing or advertising themselves in a way to gather an audience more prone to dissatisfaction? Hard to say in the absence of facts. Maybe there are just a few people out there who are out to get this particular company? :)

If those of you who have been here longer can detect that the number of complaints against this particular operator is higher than the norm, though, then there's evidence enough for caution and concern. No one booking dives on vacation wants to come away dissatisfied with the experience, whether they have a right to be or not. In this particular thread, we have enough from an experienced diver that the operation wasn't set up to tend to the safety of an inexperinced diver. We had another very experienced diver say basically the same thing in a passing post with a few supporting details. While that doesn't make the operator responsible for this death, it would be enough fact to point me in another direction as an inexperienced diver seeking a safe experience.
 
I'm very sorry about this tragedy. Wading through this thread, though, I get the impression that it can be very difficult to sort facts from hunches and half-baked knowledge. Nowhere in the thread did I see another, likely explanation, knowing no other facts at this point: cardiac arrest, possibly caused by a heart attack. Perhaps I overlooked it, and I apologize if this came up and has been settled already. As long as the autopsy didn't rule out a heart attack, I would consider that possibility, given that the diver was 58 years old. Again, by no means am I implying that the dive master did not act unprofessionally, from the OP's description it sounds like he was an idiot. However, I think it's very dangerous to assign blame to an individual if perhaps what really happened was a tragic confluence of circumstances, such as a heart attack, dispersed group and a divemaster who didn't pay attention. It's one thing to state that a divemaster is incompetent, but it's another to outright assign a person the blame for someone else's death.

I hope the autopsy will reveal the details and again, my thoughts are with those who have been touched by this tragedy.
 
Vladimir, If the DM is not there to keep you safe then tell me what his job description is?
Not His Job...!
I am ending this thread. There is way too much confusion and If I could talk to everyone I could clear everyones concerns up, however since I can't this could go on forever. If I have anymore updates as to the case I will post them. PADI is doing their own investigation as well and we will see what will happen. The DM is not diving at this moment he is on leave as you might say. That I know is a good thing until this is final. Again thank you for your comments most were very informative and helpful as for the rest. Well, I will just say they are here for everyone else to read.

peace and grace. Fosterboxermom
Welcome to SB. Glad you finally joined. Look around; see what if offers.

Sorry to hear about the tragedy, but if you ever made a case for why the DM was as fault, I missed it. This was a horrible experience and if you've had Padi Rescue training you may recall the chapter on after the emergency stress. Had to be horrible on your, and we'd like to help you deal with the stress - but not to the point of lynching an untried case.

Dive boats should get us there safetly, drop us & pick us up, get us back safely, and yes you always want a crewman onboard. Trained divers should not require babysitters in the water, but newbies should probly hire private DMs for the first few dives. I didn't realize that when I was new, but do well now.

If you do have a post in here that describes negligent facts, not just your opinions - please let me know which one.

Best wishes on your recovery...!
 
fosterboxermom, I am very sorry for your loss. any loss is traumatic and certainly this one was for you. Any diver loss is traumatic for the industry as well.

Several months ago there was another death in Cayman and it will go on record that it was a SCUBA accident but in fact the person was out of shape, overweight and had a heart attack. It will fall into the SCUBA stats as an accident and damage the reputation of the sport and everyone involved when in reality it was not.

I am not going to form opinions on this episode one way or another as the facts are nearly impossible to gather from the pages of responses and I am very biased as I have done many many dives with Divers Down and found them to be a completely professional operation. Safe, almost to the point of annoying when I wanted to guide my own dives. You never mentioned the DM's name, probably a good idea not too legally but I know many or most of them and they are skilled divers and brief the dives almost to the point that I want to tell them to shut up and let us dive.

Having said that, I would be interested in the facts so I will wait until there is something reliable in the news, if that is even possible, or read the DAN report.

Again, my sorrow for the loss of a friend and to that of thier family.
 
I am having trouble understanding what caused him to come back after being at 346ft. He swam up himself?

If I had to guess I would say that just about the last thing this poor soul did in his life was to hammer on the inflator button.

This thread reinforces why I never want to be a Divemaster/Instructor
 
While that doesn't make the operator responsible for this death, it would be enough fact to point me in another direction as an inexperienced diver seeking a safe experience.

And this is entirely your choice. I might make the same decision for myself however until I see what can be deemed fact, I am not going to lambaste the dive operator. Frankly, there have been a couple people come onto ScubaBoard with the obvious intent to waste an operator that upset them. I am not saying that is the case here, but it does cause most people to watch for inconsistencies in stories because it is a common occurrance. As my very first post in this thread stated, I am sorry for the OP's loss and I truly do hope they realize their goals of change. A single true scuba related death is too many, so if they are able to do something to improve the statistics, then I, as a diver, will thank them.

Unfortunately that does not mean that I will not request facts when it comes to condemning an operator. As I have said, there is rarely a single version of the truth.
 
Not His Job...!

Welcome to SB. Glad you finally joined. Look around; see what if offers.

Sorry to hear about the tragedy, but if you ever made a case for why the DM was as fault, I missed it. This was a horrible experience and if you've had Padi Rescue training you may recall the chapter on after the emergency stress. Had to be horrible on your, and we'd like to help you deal with the stress - but not to the point of lynching an untried case.

Dive boats should get us there safetly, drop us & pick us up, get us back safely, and yes you always want a crewman onboard. Trained divers should not require babysitters in the water, but newbies should probly hire private DMs for the first few dives. I didn't realize that when I was new, but do well now.

If you do have a post in here that describes negligent facts, not just your opinions - please let me know which one.

Best wishes on your recovery...!


To find out about why I think the DM had some blame in this you will have to go back and read all the post I have done. Some of the others have and it took them hours and if you have a real opinion about it then I will listen. However, MY opinion is the same of that it is the DM's job to keep you safe because like someone else pointed out what is the point of having one if that is not their job. I also went to a PADI site training and that is part of their training is SAFETY. So why teach it if it is not their job, maybe you need to review the manual.

On the other hand the man was in perfect health, no heart conditions, lung, liver, stomache, respitory, nada, he was in great health! Autopsy confirmed that.
 
And when one first gets their pilots license they are told to "stay close", "play it safe", and even "take a flight isntructor if you feel the need".

I am saddened by this loss, and I do completely understand what most are saying because they LOATHE the idea of more stringent regulation, but passing the training is simply that, passing the training.

We call a newly issued pilots certificate a "license to learn". Why? Because you will NOT know it all, and there is so much you still do not know, but can still function in the air system that you are allowed to fly by yourself. Same seems to go for diving.

The honest reality is though that once "on your own" a newbie diver may find their training, their skills, woefully inadequate to the task. Or something goes wrong, etc.

I will say this, until learning more about diving I would have told you that I though that a DM was there for everyone's safety, not some "tour guide". Heck if that is the case why have DM's?

Too many are too flippant or casual about the realities that newb divers (myself included) need a bit more coddling than the 100+ diver. Yet they are new to the whole "scene" and ya know what...right or wrong, peer pressure is a bitch. So we make mistakes, assumptions, etc. that lead us into trouble.

Thank you, You couldn't have expressed my thoughts any better. I am stressed and people are picking up on that. But I am not an idiot. So please except my apoligies if I come off that way. In fact I am a very compassionate person and I feel very sorry for the DM that made this horrible mistake of taking us all on this dive and not briefing us properly and I feel to blame as well. I am holding myself responsible for a lot more than people know. Not that I could have done anything, but you always blame yourself for all the what ifs. It is difficult on everyone concerned especially the family. All I know is the DM can get another career Brendan cannot he is dead.
 
I just finished reading through all the threads.

Currently, I am finishing up PADI DM. It seems like half the coursework has to do with protecting the safety of other divers in some capacity or another. During the internship, I have been learning about all the crazy things that both uncertified divers and certified divers can do. I can't see the point to all that if there isn't some assumption of helping protect other divers.

On all of the caribbean dives that I have done, the DMs have provided a dive and safety briefing, supervised the group underwater, and ensured that the group got back on the boat. If this was not necessary, there would be little point to having a divemaster the in the first place other than pointing out sealife.

Thank you, My point exactly!! I don't know if the other DM's on here are Old School or learned years ago and have forgotten that important step. But you are sooooo right!!!
 
To find out about why I think the DM had some blame in this you will have to go back and read all the post I have done. Some of the others have and it took them hours and if you have a real opinion about it then I will listen. However, MY opinion is the same of that it is the DM's job to keep you safe because like someone else pointed out what is the point of having one if that is not their job. I also went to a PADI site training and that is part of their training is SAFETY. So why teach it if it is not their job, maybe you need to review the manual.

On the other hand the man was in perfect health, no heart conditions, lung, liver, stomache, respitory, nada, he was in great health! Autopsy confirmed that.

Oh boy, I was still hanging with you until this post. Yikes, you need to think about who you are responding to. The divers on this thread have experience over you in just about every way you want to look at it. Safety is the individual diver's responsibility first. You should never rely on someone else for this, not your buddy, not the DM. I respectfully suggest you review your Open Water Manual, your risk and liability statement you signed and the Padi Standard Safe Diving Practices Statement of Understanding which you should have signed as well (perhaps you can find these on the Padi site). It appears from your posts the DM's purpose was to guide (this is called Discover Local Diving in Padi Speak) unless the dive op "sold him" to you as an instructor (check your paper work). A DM has the ethical requirement to follow the same Padi Standard Safe Diving Practices Statement of Understanding as you however his "job" -if it was indeed a Discover Local Diving (I am quoting relevant tasks from the instructor manual) is to "provide an area overview and brief on local conditions, hazards and points of interest" "explain special procedures used in the local area or describe techniques divers may use on the dive" "after the dive debrief" and "have participants log the dive and sign their logbooks". I am not defending him/her but don't start with such remarks - you'll only discredit your position. Take a break ok? you deserve it, it was a ****ty week for you...and may I suggest to you to dive in Jamaica, which has a program (by law) that seems to support more of what you are looking for. You cannot dive there without a DM, they control your depth (you will not dive to 100ft unless you are AOW), they hover and watch from the side. It is conservative profiles. It is relaxed and enjoyable and you will be taken care of. Jamaica is the only place in the caribbean I know who has this "control" over the diver however. Others on this post may be able to suggest other locations. Do your research on a dive op well in advance before doing a dive with them, use this board for this purpose, it offers many resources.

The most disturbing part of this thread is the complete misunderstanding (with a great portion of new divers) our industry has in terms of what a DM's role is in diving. That is what the pro's need to be working on. :depressed:
 
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