Divemasters/Resorts making you flood and clear?

[friscuba]

So... does that mean that if I find deficiency in the examiner's skills, I get my money back or a different DM? 9 times out of 10 the DM's I see at resort locations don't meet my minimal skill level, and I avoid diving with operations that require me to dive with their DM's for that reason- Im on vacation, not being paid to supervise.

My comment was more in a response to an earlier comment about an examiner wasting a divers time. I personally couldn't care if they had DM trainees running the skills check. It's their operation, if I want to go I'll follow their required tests.

later,

 

[muddiver]

What?!? Since I live in Hawaii, this is news to me

Well Mr. Hawaii guy, it is a direct quote from the boat captain Hans and DM from Seasport Divers out of Koloa, Kauai. If you know who they are call and find out why they are saying this to divers they are taking out and/or check with the local USCG and let the rest of know if I an full of s**t or not.

Thalassamania would also like to know.

 

[jd950]

friscuba:
Thank you for explaining. I thought having a certain certification created a presumption of competence at that level. I see now that I was mistaken, both because some (many?) think the certification requirements are too lax and because of people becoming "rusty" through inactivity. I fwish being certified meant more than it apparently does but I guess that's the way it is, and I can certainly understand how inactivity could make one rusty.

I still think that if some resort or divemaster is going to test customers before letting them dive, they should incorporate that into their scheduling, and disclose it to customers. If you take the cost of airfare, hotels or resort, meals, etc. into account, and add in any gear rental and dive costs then divide it by the number of dives on a particular trip, each dive can be pretty costly. I travel with non-diving family and can't possibly do the 40-50 dives in a week some of you speak of. So, yeah, losing dive time and burning air while 8 people including me do basic skills demos, coupled with my enjoyment being diminished for awhile due irritated eyes, would annoy me a little.

Some people took my post to mean that I am uncomfortable doing the skills, or that I think I am so good I should be exempt, or that I am going to panic or have a tantrum or refuse to do a checkout if asked. I'm not sure where all that came from. The fact that I express an opinion or ask a question here doesn't mean I am going to refuse or whine while on a dock or boat. There are a lot of things in life that I question or don't agree with, and I don't have temper tantrums about them. On the other hand, as a paying customer I do have a right to ask about what I am getting for my money, and yes, even to complain if I feel so inclined.

I am inexperienced, or I probably wouldn't have asked the questions in the first place. I certainly do hope that my abilities will improve over time. Heck, I'm still having trouble descending at the beginning of a dive and not being too buoyant at the end of a dive. I mentioned in my first post that developing and practicing skills was a good idea and should be done...but questioned the significance of those particular skill tests at issue and their timing.

There is an interesting issue this all raises, and I wonder if divemasters, boat captains and resort operators have really thought about the legal implications to themselves of testing their customers before letting them dive, but that will have to wait for some other thread.

 

[fisherdvm]

I didn't read all the 16 pages of post, but a new diver on the boat can mean headaches for the whole group.

In areas with currents, the group need to stay together, and the DM job is not just a babysitter, but a manager to protect the group from surface traffic, and for efficient exit and boarding.

All it take is one improperly weighted diver, and the whole group is down at the bottom of the ocean burning air.... Waiting for the idiot to have more weight added. Now if he/she does not have enough weight, that also causes a problem at the end of the dive.

The need for a checkout dive is to save everyone a headache.... A DM diving skill might be worse than yours, but if you and your gears are not ready .... Everyone is penalized because of your unpreparedness.

 

[muddiver]

Derek at Seasport Divers reports that the three dive charter safety organizations that encompus the Hawaiian islands have decided to impose the rule on dive charters. The groups are H.I.R.S.A., S.O.R.M.A. and Hawiian Ocean Safety Team (HOST).

I stand corrected that it was not the U.S.C.G., but that was the agency quoted during the charter I was on.

Mudd

 

[Cacia]

it is a direct quote from the boat captain Hans and DM from Seasport Divers out of Koloa, Kauai.

Trust me, nobody knows what is going on in Hawaii, not even the Coast Guard. Call them ten times, you will get five different answers, three "I don't know's", and two dropped transfers. So you are forgiven.

 

[muddiver]

Well at least here in the left coast we own up to being disorganized and prone to loosing divers offshore.

 

[Thalassamania]

Derek at Seasport Divers reports that the three dive charter safety organizations that encompus the Hawaiian islands have decided to impose the rule on dive charters. The groups are H.I.R.S.A., S.O.R.M.A. and Hawiian Ocean Safety Team (HOST).

I stand corrected that it was not the U.S.C.G., but that was the agency quoted during the charter I was on.

Mudd

A web search indicates that H.I.R.S.A. represents no (0) diver operators and shows no presence for S.O.R.M.A. H.O.S.T while indicating that it has a diving subcommittee, has no member that is designated as hailing from the diving community.

Me thinks Derek talkin' cocka-pu-pu.

In fact this bunch was exposed as prevaricators during a previous run in.

On their web site they indicate:

"Andrew has been with Seaport Divers since October 1996 and serves as our Senior Captain and as an instructor. He started decking on fishing boats when he was 18 and has been a certified diver since 1982. He grew up diving in Monterey Bay and received a BA in marine biology from Cal-State Santa Cruz. Combine all that knowledge with almost two decades here on Kauai . . . if you have a question, Andrew probably has the answer. Outside of work Andrew loves wood- working, shell collecting and has the largest Aquarium and Fish collection any of us has ever seen."

There is no such institution as Cal-State Santa Cruz. You'd think that Andrew would be able to remember where he graduated from, for that they'd have fixed this glaring inaccuracy when I pointed it out to them many months ago.

I don't dive with liars and suggest you do not do so either.

 

[Dion]

Ok I have to clarify some things here because there are some flaws in your assumptions.

friscuba:
Thank you for explaining. I thought having a certain certification created a presumption of competence at that level. I see now that I was mistaken, both because some (many?) think the certification requirements are too lax and because of people becoming "rusty" through inactivity. I fwish being certified meant more than it apparently does but I guess that's the way it is, and I can certainly understand how inactivity could make one rusty.

As many people have already said, I think that after you have been on a few dive boats, you will no longer question the need for check out dives. I have seen some people who are downright scary in the water.

Not to mention the people who get talked into it by their significant other even though they are terrified of the water. <-- seen it more than once. Heck, one time there was a lady who didn't even bother to have a depth gauge because "her husband kept track of all that *stuff*", but I had to keep pulling her down from the surface so she wouldn't get her head chopped off by a propeller because he wasn't paying any attention to her and she wasn't paying any attention to her depth.

I still think that if some resort or divemaster is going to test customers before letting them dive, they should incorporate that into their scheduling, and disclose it to customers. If you take the cost of airfare, hotels or resort, meals, etc. into account, and add in any gear rental and dive costs then divide it by the number of dives on a particular trip, each dive can be pretty costly. I travel with non-diving family and can't possibly do the 40-50 dives in a week some of you speak of. So, yeah, losing dive time and burning air while 8 people including me do basic skills demos, coupled with my enjoyment being diminished for awhile due irritated eyes, would annoy me a little.

You keep spouting this, yet I have done the checkout dive at AKR many times and it is not a "dive" at all. It is less than 5 minutes spent in the water at the dock before the boat even goes near the reef, you aren't wasting anything, except maybe a few psi of air and a few minutes of time. I can't speak for check out dives at other resorts but I at least had to clear it up about AKR.

Some people took my post to mean that I am uncomfortable doing the skills, or that I think I am so good I should be exempt, or that I am going to panic or have a tantrum or refuse to do a checkout if asked. I'm not sure where all that came from. The fact that I express an opinion or ask a question here doesn't mean I am going to refuse or whine while on a dock or boat. There are a lot of things in life that I question or don't agree with, and I don't have temper tantrums about them. On the other hand, as a paying customer I do have a right to ask about what I am getting for my money, and yes, even to complain if I feel so inclined.

You specifically stated that you hated salt water in your eyes and that it would "ruin your diving for the day", I would say that would fall under the "uncomfortable" tag. (To be perfectly honest, in your post you came across as a whiner who blows things all out of proportion, and not someone I would like on my dive boat.) And the fact of the matter is, if you would just talk to the dive master, I am sure that it wouldn't even be a problem. In fact, I wear contacts and I have never had to fully flood my mask on any checkout dive, I just explain it to the divemaster and they let you just do a partial flood and clear.

I am inexperienced, or I probably wouldn't have asked the questions in the first place. I certainly do hope that my abilities will improve over time. Heck, I'm still having trouble descending at the beginning of a dive and not being too buoyant at the end of a dive. I mentioned in my first post that developing and practicing skills was a good idea and should be done...but questioned the significance of those particular skill tests at issue and their timing.

There is an interesting issue this all raises, and I wonder if divemasters, boat captains and resort operators have really thought about the legal implications to themselves of testing their customers before letting them dive, but that will have to wait for some other thread.

If you want your skills to improve, then you should welcome the opportunity to have them checked out by a professional, its good practice.

Dion

 

[friscuba]

A web search indicates that H.I.R.S.A. represents no (0) diver operators and shows no presence for S.O.R.M.A. H.O.S.T while indicating that it has a diving subcommittee, has no member that is designated as hailing from the diving community.

Me thinks Derek talkin' cocka-pu-pu.

In fact this bunch was exposed as prevaricators during a previous run in.

On their web site they indicate:

"Andrew has been with Seaport Divers since October 1996 and serves as our Senior Captain and as an instructor. He started decking on fishing boats when he was 18 and has been a certified diver since 1982. He grew up diving in Monterey Bay and received a BA in marine biology from Cal-State Santa Cruz. Combine all that knowledge with almost two decades here on Kauai . . . if you have a question, Andrew probably has the answer. Outside of work Andrew loves wood- working, shell collecting and has the largest Aquarium and Fish collection any of us has ever seen."

There is no such institution as Cal-State Santa Cruz. You'd think that Andrew would be able to remember where he graduated from, for that they'd have fixed this glaring inaccuracy when I pointed it out to them many months ago.

I don't dive with liars and suggest you do not do so either.

sorry for being a bit nit-picky... HIRSA does indeed have 19-20 dive operator members (including most of the bigger ops) currently, and several that seem to rotate in and out from time to time. Non-member operators seem to be invited to most of their meetings as well, as I get a lot of invites to participate, just haven't joined yet. HOST is up front about who is involved right on their home page, more of a citizen,/government group than dive operators. I've never heard of SORMA, but that doesn't mean they, or another similarly acronymed organization, doesn't exist.

I don't know any of the people at Seasport Divers, but a lot of people, out west anyway, refer to most of the California schools as Cal State whatever. University of California Santa Cruz does offer a Marine Biology degree, albeit a BS rather than a BA, but it appears the Captain didn't write his personal bio, could be an understandable error.